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Old 11-10-2008, 11:23 PM
 
Location: los angeles
5,031 posts, read 8,147,381 times
Reputation: 1354

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangodoodles View Post
I guess, I just don't see the point of inflaming them further. It gives people like CESpeed license to say, "Yay! I'm so glad I voted for them to lose their rights!" It just seems to cause more problems than it solves. And if people are going to protest at churches they should make sure to do it at all churches and not just target one denomination. There are multiple churches that are responsible for what happened on Prop 8. Frankly, I think my time would be better put to use protesting at a government office like city hall than making religious people pissed. They will never feel sorry for how the voted, the way to get back at them is to take this to the Supreme Court and get it overturned federally. That would really get their panties in a twist and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Vengeance is sweet.
Well, we can disagree & in no way fear that gays demanding their rights has anything to do with changing people's vote. The issue will be dealt with in the courts & both the state legislature & governor handed it over to the attorney general, Jerry Brown, who petitioned the California Supreme court today. Also both Feinstein & senator Boxer appealed to the court. So it is back in the hands of the judicial system.

The point of dialog between some Christians and the gay community is primarily back in the hands of the church. There are gays & lesbians who feel genuinely hurt by the church & Catholics are urged to hold offerings to their parish. This is a test to Christianity that effects all people in America. I am outraged with my church yet remain a Catholic who feels responsible in urging the Pope to re-examine scripture & seek God's will.

 
Old 11-10-2008, 11:28 PM
 
8 posts, read 12,126 times
Reputation: 19
Religion, or I should say "organized religion" has been used for centuries to CONTROL people. They have no higher calling than their own power to control. Why haven't we evolved from this kind of manipulation? Why are they still relevant? The first step for our Republic is to strip organized religion of its tax-exempt status. When they start trying to manipulate elections beyond state borders, they've crossed a line, they are no longer worthy of the privilege. Mormons are by far the worst offenders but Catholics and some Protestants are not far behind. And let's not forget the Jews and Muslims. Homosexuality is NOT a choice that people make, it is how we are born. It's in the DNA. It sometimes runs in families. And it is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. We, as a people, have to fight back. It's time to let the Hetero's know that we will not rest until we have EQUAL rights. This is just the beginning, we need to COME OUT. We need to be brave, even if it costs us our security. Our founding fathers risked everything, their homes, businesses and honor to fight for what was right, OUR FREEDOM. Please, fellow gay Americans, FIGHT, we can only win our rights if we're willing to pay the price.
 
Old 11-10-2008, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
24,822 posts, read 28,456,999 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESpeed View Post
I should have said all Christian churches but I believe that the Muslim and Jewish faiths also teach Homosexuality is wrong.
As tango said, Reform Judaism and (sometimes) Conservative Judaism are supportive of gay rights... one of my Rabbis is actually a lesbian, LOL. Orthodoxim and Chasidic Jews are not as supportive, so we have divisions just like the Christians do amongst their sects.
 
Old 11-10-2008, 11:41 PM
 
Location: los angeles
5,031 posts, read 8,147,381 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMfromBOS View Post
Religion, or I should say "organized religion" has been used for centuries to CONTROL people. They have no higher calling than their own power to control. Why haven't we evolved from this kind of manipulation? Why are they still relevant? The first step for our Republic is to strip organized religion of its tax-exempt status. When they start trying to manipulate elections beyond state borders, they've crossed a line, they are no longer worthy of the privilege. Mormons are by far the worst offenders but Catholics and some Protestants are not far behind. And let's not forget the Jews and Muslims. Homosexuality is NOT a choice that people make, it is how we are born. It's in the DNA. It sometimes runs in families. And it is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. We, as a people, have to fight back. It's time to let the Hetero's know that we will not rest until we have EQUAL rights. This is just the beginning, we need to COME OUT. We need to be brave, even if it costs us our security. Our founding fathers risked everything, their homes, businesses and honor to fight for what was right, OUR FREEDOM. Please, fellow gay Americans, FIGHT, we can only win our rights if we're willing to pay the price.
Bravo! and who can disagree with you?

The lesson California has learned is that ignorance\ fear\ dogma can not be included in laws chosen by the electorate. The California system of propositions can be tedious & wrong-minded. Prop 187 about 15 yrs ago forbade medical care for undocumented immigrants & was immediately stuck down by the court. But I would not do away with the initiative process we have in CA. Schwarzenegger wants swift action & resumption of gay marriages. I don't think it will be too long a wait.
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
25,105 posts, read 32,667,991 times
Reputation: 10662
Quote:
Originally Posted by CESpeed View Post
Does anyone want to keep saying churches would not have come under attack for refusing to marry a same sex couple?
Its incredibly disingenuous and totally naive for people to think that Churches would not be persecuted.

Quote:
A priest who was sentenced to one month in prison for making offensive remarks about gay people is appealing against the verdict, reigniting a debate that has pitted freedom of expression against the rights of minorities.
Quote:
But Sören Andersson, chairman of RFSL, the Swedish gay rights movement, said that the case had nothing to do with freedom of expression, and that no special exceptions should be made for religious groups.

Swedish gay hate priest launches appeal - The Local
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
25,105 posts, read 32,667,991 times
Reputation: 10662
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinkieMcGee View Post
So what? Religion shouldn't be in the constitution.
I rest my case.
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:16 AM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
10,656 posts, read 9,468,581 times
Reputation: 4722
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Its incredibly disingenuous and totally naive for people to think that Churches would not be persecuted.






Swedish gay hate priest launches appeal - The Local

can you show us a case where churches would be "persecuted" in the UNited States?
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
25,105 posts, read 32,667,991 times
Reputation: 10662
Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
Black ppl did not fund this yes on 8 campaign and make it out to be a big deal.
Actually, Blacks were attracted to the Election by Barack Obama, not Mormons.

In fact, Barack Obama is more responsible for Yes on 8 winning in the inner cities than Mormons are.

Inner Cities is where Prop 8 was put over the top.

Your focus should be on this fact.

Barack Obama: 6,765,199
No on 8: 5,266,794
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
25,105 posts, read 32,667,991 times
Reputation: 10662
Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
can you show us a case where churches would be "persecuted" in the UNited States?
This is a precursor of things to come here. Its already legal in Sweden and Canada.

Speaking of Canada..
Quote:
His offense? He cited teachings about marriage contained in the Bible, the Catholic Church's Catechism, and statements made by Pope John Paul II.
Canadian Catholic Priest Opposes Same-Sex Marriage, Faces Possible Prosecution (http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-news-feed/1772-canadian-catholic-priest-opposes-same-sex-marriage-faces-possible-prosecution - broken link)
 
Old 11-11-2008, 12:21 AM
 
8 posts, read 12,126 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
But I would not do away with the initiative process we have in CA. Schwarzenegger wants swift action & resumption of gay marriages. I don't think it will be too long a wait.
So, in other words your hoping that Arnold does the dirty work for you. As an East Coast guy (who spent years on the West Cost) I think the initiative process SUCKS. It invites "Tyranny of the Majority" as you have just witnessed. We don't tolerate this kind of bull**** on the East Coast. Try electing someone you trust and who will protect your interests. That is why we elect representatives, to protect us from the tyranny of the majority, to look after the rights of all their constituents. To do the right thing even if it's unpopular. It takes balls and the ability to lead. The initiative process is like jumping into a cold pool, everything shrinks.
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