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Old 11-04-2008, 05:23 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,353 posts, read 51,942,966 times
Reputation: 23746

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Quote:
Originally Posted by krudmonk View Post
With an issue like this, it can be that simple. Equality for all people is a basic principle of this society. Voting against that can't really be described any other way.

If people are voting because of church taxes or perversion of children, maybe they aren't hateful bigots. In that case, they're just stupid because they allow themselves to be manipulated by diversion tactics.

So then I guess we agree that not everyone voting YES is a bigot. However, none of them are honorable.
Good post, and I concur. I would never go so far as to say "All people who vote yes are bigots," but at the very least they are misguided or ill-informed. However, if you have read all the arguments for AND against the proposition with an open mind, including the rebuttals on both sides, and still vote yes - for no reason other than "it's against my Bible" or "I just don't think it's right" then I must call it what it is (bigotry). If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck & looks like a duck... well, chances are it's a duck.

 
Old 11-04-2008, 05:28 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,353 posts, read 51,942,966 times
Reputation: 23746
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
Is my belief in mother earth less valid than your belief in your god? Do I not have the same rights to religious freedom as you do? Or do I have to believe in a god you think is acceptable. I see proposition 8 to be a threat to religious freedom, it is intended to force one belief upon every one else.
Exactly! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I am a Reform Jew, and we wholeheartedly support gay marriage & equal rights... in fact, one of our Rabbis is a lesbian with a long-term partner and son. So why are our religious beliefs less valid than a Christian or Mormon? This is why religion should be kept out of laws altogether, because it's no less selfish for ME to say "my religious beliefs should dictate the law" than it is for anyone else. Only logic and humanity have a place in the government, not religion.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
754 posts, read 1,449,186 times
Reputation: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC2Jax View Post
Churches already have religious freedom. The freedom not to be put in jail for believing all that stuff they want to believe. The freedom to live their lives their way.

It ends there.

They have no freedom to create laws that impose on the rights of others.
Heteros can still marry even if Prop 8 fails....they are being denied NOTHING.

Still the bigots hide behind this bogus "lack of religious freedom" crap.
This is the problem, there is no need to call me a bigot because we disagree on the religious aspect of this issue. My entire life, I have been raised to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. I am very uncomfortable redefining that, but I've already spoken my piece on this issue and won't argue it anymore. But you do demonstrate my point that all the ignorance doesn't just exist on the Yes on 8 side. You will never get what you want until you learn to stop hating/alienating people and learn to work with the other side. I hate to sound Polly Anna about this, but clearly you realize this. Even if Prop 8 is defeated there are still 48 more states to go. Going around calling everyone who disagrees with you a bigot isn't going to help your cause at all.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
754 posts, read 1,449,186 times
Reputation: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Exactly! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I am a Reform Jew, and we wholeheartedly support gay marriage & equal rights... in fact, one of our Rabbis is a lesbian with a long-term partner and son. So why are our religious beliefs less valid than a Christian or Mormon? This is why religion should be kept out of laws altogether, because it's no less selfish for ME to say "my religious beliefs should dictate the law" than it is for anyone else. Only logic and humanity have a place in the government, not religion.

I have a question for you: What Bible do you follow? I will be the first to say that as a Christian I have never read the the Jewish Bible (not sure what you call it), but are you saying that it doesn't define marriage as a union between a man and a woman? How does it define it? (Please note that I'm asking this with geniune interest and I am by no means "attacking" it at all. I respect all beliefs.)

Actually, that's what's missing out of all of this, respect. In my bible, it says that Marriage is a union ordained by God. So, there's no way to remove religion from this argument. So as long as you have people who believe in the bible, they will always fight to defend their beliefs. So, it's not about my trying to force my religion on anyone. It's about defending my beliefs. I've always said, I'd vote for equal rights of Gays in a heartbeat. I just won't vote for it to be called a marriage. You can call the union whatever you like, just not marriage.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 06:17 PM
 
Location: yeah
5,717 posts, read 16,350,211 times
Reputation: 2975
Why does it seem that if Christians are exposed to any bit of the world which is non-Christian, then they are being persecuted? I seriously saw a YES ON 8 sign which read "religious freedom." That is beyond backwards.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 06:36 PM
 
Location: California
202 posts, read 534,921 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyinLa View Post
Actually, that's what's missing out of all of this, respect. In my bible, it says that Marriage is a union ordained by God. So, there's no way to remove religion from this argument.
I am a man, and I married a woman. I am not a Christian, and my marriage did not take place in a church. It was not a religious ceremony.

Does that make my marriage invalid?
 
Old 11-04-2008, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
754 posts, read 1,449,186 times
Reputation: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnJack View Post
I am a man, and I married a woman. I am not a Christian, and my marriage did not take place in a church. It was not a religious ceremony.

Does that make my marriage invalid?
Of course not. This reminds me of an example I gave a few pages back. I said that this is like people who celebrate Christmas but do not believe in Jesus. Does that mean that Christmas is no longer a holiday to celebrate Christ? Of course not. It is and always will be a religious holiday regardless of the desire to make it secular. At this point, you can't even say Merry Christmas to people because it's offensive to non Christians. I ask you, does that make sense?

It's the same principal to me, as far as I'm concerned. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman ordained by God. No matter how people want to deny that Marriage is a religious ceremony, to me it is. So as such, I have to vote to uphold the rules of MY religion. You don't have to agree with me, but don't label me as a bigot or homophobe.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 07:24 PM
 
Location: yeah
5,717 posts, read 16,350,211 times
Reputation: 2975
If marriage is ordained by God, why do we need a licensed person to conduct the ceremony? Does that person have to be religious?
 
Old 11-04-2008, 07:46 PM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,414 posts, read 10,492,645 times
Reputation: 4305
And if it is ordained by god, why can one get married by a judge, justice of peace, county clerk or even a friend that has been permitted by the court house. Religion is only involved if one chooses to have religion involved in their marriage. Religion was not involved in my marriage, yet your choice to use religion to make a law against my marriage does involve religion in my life without my wanting it there. So, to preserve your marriage from an imagined threat, you involve your religion in my life and make choices for me.
 
Old 11-04-2008, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville (Southside)
62 posts, read 180,942 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyinLa View Post
My entire life, I have been raised to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
I grew up with people that believe ending slavery was wrong. "It has been on Earth for hundreds of years...why change it?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyinLa View Post
Going around calling everyone who disagrees with you a bigot isn't going to help your cause at all.
If it walks like a duck...

Tell me why people are about protecting marriage, yet refuse to try and ban divorce? Isn't divorce for 99% of reasons used today not recognized in the Bible? It has nothing to do with protecting marriage...it's about denying EQUAL rights to a group of people...not special rights.

Just remember...it took many years for African-Americans to be able to even sit at the same table as white people and eat. Laws were eventually changed.

Even if states pass "protect marriage" amendments, they will be repealed by future voters as those who deny marriage equality for everybody (is that better?) will die out over the years.

It will happen one day.
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