How many are thinking of leaving California? (Los Angeles, San Diego: fit in, transplants)

[happ]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

California has an out-migration problem, this is a fact. What is happening with the people you know doesn't change the facts. Also, regulations that favor employees disfavor business owners and start-ups. Without businesses you don't have employees..... Liberal policy makers seem not to understand that regulation locks out start-ups from starting new businesses (that compete with existing ones) due to the high costs to do nothing more than keep up with regulations. These policies are supported by the existing businesses because although it increases their costs, they can afford it and it removes competition.

The bay area not only has a very bad distribution of wealth, but its creating less new wealth than other areas. So if you made your money in the 70's and 80's you can enjoy yourself, but if you are a new comer wanting to make new money you're screwed. It is not the establishment that is leaving, its the people outside of it. But its ironic that liberal policies that pretend to be good for the "working class" are destroying it in the bay area.


In Texas you may pay more for cooling, not because its hotter but because its more humid (The humidity makes it feel hotter, in a way). Also, just in case you didn't know, not all Los Angeles has identical weather. The LA basin is cooler than the San Fernando Valley. The heat in the San Fernando Valley is horrible opening your window at night doesn't do the trick.

When I lived on the east coast I paid on average around $60 more a month in utilities than I spend here. Wasn't a big deal at all. I wasn't in a super cold area, but colder than Arkansas and Alabama.

Humanoid

You know it is not just the weather why people love California. It's a great plus for health & well-being [that we even complain at times is pathetic knowing the climates elsewhere]. Outdoor living all year\ sports opportunities.

You tend to narrow it down to the lowest denominator. I won't even go into the outstanding beauty & things to do w/ ocean\ mts\ deserts. Ability to grow vegetables\fruits all year. Cultural advantages & center for entertainment\ tourism\ large sophisticated cities\ many writers\ intellectuals\ creative people\ envy of the world

Lifestyle diversity\ ethnicities\ less white people

If all you want is fiscal security than move anywhere. I remember once taking my cousin to the new cathedral & then asking him later his opinion. He hadn't noticed the art\ angles\ light\ space, it was just another building [and he goes to mass twice a week!

[Humanoid]

Originally Posted by happ

You know it is not just the weather why people love California. It's a great plus for health & well-being [that we even complain at times is pathetic knowing the climates elsewhere]. Outdoor living all year sports opportunities.

I don't get it, you say it isn't just about the weather yet talk about weather related issues. What benefit is there to living in California other than the weather in some areas (not all areas of California have nice weather, in fact most of the state doesn't in terms of square footage).

The only other thing you mentioned in the rest of your post was diversity. Less white people? That is a plus? I suppose it could be for a racist? Sorta like the people that want to leave California because the brown people.

Originally Posted by happ

If all you want is fiscal security than move anywhere.

You seem not to understand the notion of a cost benefit analysis. The point is not just to look at costs, its to look at the costs in relation to the benefits. So, for the example I gave the cost to live in California is $1,700/month. So what benefit are you getting for that money? Apparently to you, its weather and less white people.

For me the weather and demographics aren't worth $1,700/month. That is $20,400 a year. With that I can spend a few weeks in Europe each summer, go on 1-2 road trips a year and a number of small local events.

When you do a cost benefit analysis, you not only have to think about cost vs benefit. But also what else you can do with the money if you weren't forking it out for just living in California.

Also, as I noted previously. The costs to live in California aren't nearly as high for someone that has already established themselves in the state. A variety of issues (like prop 13) favor older residents by making it more expensive for younger residents and new residents to live in the state.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

For me the weather and demographics aren't worth $1,700/month. That is $20,400 a year. With that I can spend a few weeks in Europe each summer, go on 1-2 road trips a year and a number of small local events.

He'll probably tell you that living in California is so great, every day is a vacation and there's no need to pay for road trips to less worthy states or Europe. (Yes, I've actually been told that before.)

[Humanoid]

Forgot to respond to this:

Originally Posted by sav858

Some of the benefits people see in living here you can't always quantify.

Which is another way of saying its emotional garbage. If you can't enumerate the benefits in some way, then its hard to take them seriously.

Originally Posted by sav858

Yes there are cheaper and more livable places to live than CA, that has been pretty obvious for a while now. Honestly its like you want people to share your same point of view on the state and are looking for validation.

No I want people to state what is worth the additional cost. So far it seems to be weather and less white people. Oddly, the strongest reason to stay hasn't really been mentioned, namely to be close to family. But how much this benefit is worth is largely a metric of how close you are to your family. But I can at least understand how someone would stay for family, everything else that has been mentioned is clearly not worth cost. Nobody would pay $1,700/ to lower the humidity during the summer if this was some how something you could pay to do. Nobody would pay hundred bucks every time they went to the beach. But this is just want they do, they just don't realize it because they aren't directly paying for it.

I'm just trying to get the costs and benefits to be openly stated so you can see exactly what you are paying for.

Originally Posted by sav858

When the economy was in the crapper in the early 1990's CA, and especially SoCal, lost a ton of people. These are cycles that CA has weathered before and will again. Homes prices are coming down to a lot more reasonable levels and more people are able to afford homes.

Here is the problem. California never really recovered from the 1990's, it just created bubbles. First in technology and then in housing. The business that left California never returned and was never really replaced by anything meaningful. Why do you think the unemployment rate magically got so high so fast? Because the bubble business is gone and its returning to 1990's levels because...ahem...it never really recovered from those levels.

If you think this crash is anything like the 1990's then honestly, you don't know what is going on. California is not going to get out of its problems by issuing bonds anymore. California mortgaged its future and the day has come to pay up. California has a growing deficit and a rapidly decreasing revenue base. The only way the state will not go bankrupt is by dramatically cutting services and entitlements, the same can be said for many local governments. Oh wait....but what will happen when you do this? Higher unemployment rate.

Due tell how California is going to recover from this any time soon, I'm all ears because I have no freakin' idea. The only way for the state to recover is to attract business, but that isn't going to happen until the tax rates drop and the cost of doing business in the state drops. And that isn't going to happen until all the loafers in Sacramento are kicked out on the street. Californians voted for much of the same this election though...

Anyway, I'm not saying California or even the bay area won't recover. What I'm saying is that the recovery is going to be long and painful and the California that exists after the fact is going to be bunch different government wise.

In fact the only reason I haven't left yet is to see what happens. So far it has been very disappointing.

[ndfmnlf]

You seem not to understand the notion of a cost benefit analysis. The point is not just to look at costs, its to look at the costs in relation to the benefits. So, for the example I gave the cost to live in California is $1,700/month. So what benefit are you getting for that money?

In other words, you're so smart for doing the cost benefit analysis while people who stay in Callifornia are so dumb. Okay, we get it. But what makes you presume these people haven't done their own cost benefit analyses that apply to their own specific situations? Presumptuous much?

And why would someone like you who claims he has already done the cost benefit analysis still lives in California? Why haven't you moved yet? The time you spend complaining on this forum about California is better spent packing your bags and heading for Texas.

I have a sense that you really would like to stay in California, but circumstances beyond your control (i.e. job loss, business failure) is forcing you out.

[Humanoid]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

In other words, you're so smart for doing the cost benefit analysis while people who stay in Callifornia are so dumb. Okay, we get it. But what makes you presume these people haven't done their own cost benefit analyses that apply to their own specific situations? Presumptuous much?

Because people rarely do this sort of thing. If they did there are a variety of marketing strategies that wouldn't work, but alas they work great. Of course some people think in these terms, its just by no means the majority.

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

And why would someone like you who claims he has already done the cost benefit analysis still lives in California? Why haven't you moved yet? The time you spend complaining on this forum about California is better spent packing your bags and heading for Texas.

Primarily because we don't know where we'd like to move yet. We aren't going to pack our bags and move to the first place that seems nice. Moving is a pain and we want to make sure we make the right choice this time (unlike, when we decided to move back to California). We are currently researching and plan to make a few trips early next year.

To some degree we were also waiting to see what happens in the state. But it seems the areas we would be interested in living may take awhile before they become cheaper to live in. At current prices they aren't worth it.

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

I have a sense that you really would like to stay in California, but circumstances beyond your control (i.e. job loss, business failure) is forcing you out.

Why would a business failure force me out of the state? Regardless, I'm doing just fine at the moment so what you are "sensing" is not accurate. But there are some areas in California that we think are nice, its just that currently they are too expensive for what you get in return. Which is what I've been talking about the whole time.....

This is part of the whole "If you want to move its because your beaten" line. Its silly.

[ndfmnlf]

Because people rarely do this sort of thing. If they did there are a variety of marketing strategies that wouldn't work, but alas they work great. Of course some people think in these terms, its just by no means the majority.

How'd you know that people rarely do this sort of thing? Can you read their minds? Are you privy to their finances? When did it become your mission to tell people to do cost benefit analysis?

It seems to me you'd like other people to persuade you to stay in California by showing their cost benefit analysis to you, to prove you wrong so to speak. But why should people drop what they're doing just to give you the information you want? The Californians who enjoy California are not on this board anyway. They are out there enjoying the weather. And making money.

[CAtoGA]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents here. I am really trying to get my family out of CA. We are in the wine country, Sonoma County, a 1-1/2 income family raising two kids, 11 and 15. Sure we could stay here if I was willing to work full time outside the home and never see my family. Is it worth it? Not to me. My husband isn't as easily convinced but he is coming around.

Now, all of our family and friends are here in the north bay, with just a couple of exceptions. Will that keep me here? No. They cannot and will not pay our bills for us when things run short. And be sure that they do run short. When we have to pay $80+ for each sport that our high school freshman plays (at school) and $140/semester for the school but that he only rides half the time now because sports practices don't get done until 5, then there's all the fundraisers that the schools have to have in order to make up for all the money that has been taken away and given to the military.

Luckily we got into our home before the bubble, but it is still very expensive to live here. When I think that we can move somewhere else (specifically we are looking into Tennessee) with a mortgage that is half of what we pay now, gas that is 30-40 cents/gallon less, no fee for the school bus, flat rate for auto registration no matter what year, no smog fee, etc., I am blown away. And all this (yes we are among the lucky few) without taking a pay cut. Sure, the ocean and the mountains are wonderful to have so close. But wouldn't it be nice to only pay for those things when I want to see them instead of paying for them all the time? I've done my research. There are many, many beautiful things to see and do in Tennessee. We've been to one of the many state parks and it was just as beautiful as the ones we have here. And to think that you can reach 2/3 of the continental US within a day's drive from TN is great. Do you know how many places that opens up to us as tourists? California is great but you have to drive forever or fly and pay exhorbitant plane fairs to get anywhere else to visit. And that is on top of paying daily for the benefit of the mountains and ocean that you may only visit occasionally.

Did I mention the history on the other side of the country? I know there is a lot of history in CA, but those of us who grew up here have heard it all before. On the other hand, the history of the east coast goes back to before the Civil War! Our country began back there! How amazing would it be to take a picnic lunch and eat at the site of a great Civil War battle or visit the homes of the founding fathers? I, personally, can't wait to learn about a new area. What is life without a little adventure? Why settle for the status quo when you can have so many new experiences? I understand that many are not in a situation like we are being able to take our current income and move to a less expensive area, but those are my reasons for wanting to get out of CA. I am also getting more than a little disgusted with the politics of the state.

One more thing to think about. The infrastructure of TN is a bit stronger than CA, yet they have no state income tax, their property tax is less because the value of the homes is less, their auto registration is lower. They don't have all the restrictions that CA does on everything that you do, yet their roads are very well taken care of.

Okay, so that was a bit more than 2 cents.

[GLS]

Originally Posted by sheri257

Well, east coast winters are pretty miserable, ........... I just spent a gorgeous day taking the motorcycle down Hwy 1 to Big Sur, having a delicious brunch in Carmel, strolling along Carmel beach where me, my husband and a bunch of other perfect strangers stopped and chatted about our dogs or whatever ...

One guy joked: "Tough day in November ... isn't it?" And we all laughed because the weather and scenery was so gorgeous.

Years ago, I took a similar motorcycle trip up Interstate 95 into Maine in late November. The scenery was beautiful until it started snowing. When it changed to freezing rain, it cut threw my six layers of clothing to form an "underwear icicle". I had "brunch" at McDonald's because all the good seafood places were closed due to the poor economy.

One guy joked: "Riding a motorcycle in Maine in November? You must be dreaming of California".

[brianguy]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

the strongest reason to stay hasn't really been mentioned, namely to be close to family.

this is pretty much the only reason I don't consider leaving more seriously... family is here and I wouldn't be able to see them. that and I have a pretty decent job I'm (mostly) happy with. I grew up here in the 80's and certainly in the last 5-10 years I see that the bad outweigh the good a little bit more *every* day, and everything becomes a bit less recognizable. the reason for this is, the good things (beaches, mountains, restaurants, attractions, weather, proximity to other places) were sort of always here, but the bad things (too many people, crime, gangs, graffiti, trash, crowds, traffic, pollution, not enough jobs, too many taxes) were already here too but to a lesser degree. the good stay the same but the bad generally are on the increase.

things I can't understand, if the economy sucks here and housing continues to be unaffordable for the near (and possibly distant) future why are there constantly more and more people? how are they finding money to move here? I remember at least an outflux during the 90's when aerospace jobs went belly up and we were in a recession. but now we're in a recession and I can't get away from all the people, traffic, etc (traffic is now much worse in the last few weeks, likely because gas prices were basically halved). I'd rather pay $5-10 more to fill up my tank once a week and be able to save 10-15 minutes per trip on my way to/from work or anywhere else. I did a short calculation in my head last night and I figured I'd save well over 90 minutes a week by driving if gas prices were $3 per gallon instead of $2.15. my time is easily worth more than $6.67 per hour ($10 / 1.5 hours).

maybe it sucks just as bad (or worse) everywhere else? that's all I can think of.... talk about frustrating.