Is over-population the cause of California's woes? (Los Angeles, San Diego: buy, school district)

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by shannongeis

The world is overpopulated, here and everywhere else. It's a problem that no one wants to accept. California would be great with less people. The world can not continue to grow. The earth is finite. We do not need more people. We need less, and not just in California, but the entire world. The earth's carrying capacity is one billion people and we are at 6 billion and look at the wreck we are creating. Humans have multiplied because oil has allowed us to not have to use animals or our bodies to get things done.

Who says the earth's carrying capacity is 1 Billion people? How do they calculate this. How can we know they're right?

I don't buy into any of this. I think it's BS.

The earth could carry a lot more people. But we would have to rethink how we do things. We don't use resources efficiently. There is also a lot of waste in food production. And there is massive government corruption that wastes resources in 3rd World countries that keeps people in poverty.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Nomadicus

I had never heard of outdoor AC until a colleague visited out that way....Just one of the elements of a very complex problem. Outdoor AC and people who will not allow new power plants to be built in their state to take care of the increasing population must be tied together. As the population increases from what ever source the light at the end of the CA tunnel will become dimmer.

I think you're getting at the true source of California's problems. In a nutshell, we're selfish--and that goes for rich and poor alike.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by West of Encino

California and America are too liberal.

Too liberal, yes, IMO. But the essence of it really is that we're too selfish...liberal and conservative alike. Liberals are the biggest hypocrites on this one, though. They're the quickets to point out the selfishness of conservatives, but not their own.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by mateo45

BTW, this isn't the first time we've had hordes of unskilled, uneducated, immigrant workers and their often large families, arrive here and "using up our funds". They were called "Oakies", and it was enough of a "problem" then, that they passed the "Anti-Oakie" law in 1937, making it a crime to bring any non-resident "indigent person" into the state. And ironically, alot of the loudest complaints today about "illegals", often come from the descendants of these very same Oakies & their kin.

The difference is back then people did not depend on government transfer payments like they do today. The welfare state was only just getting started. That it has been expanded to people who are not even here legally is criminal, not to mention insane .

And there were more job opportunites for people with low or no skills back then. As it is, native born Americans are not qualified to fill a lot of the new jobs being created, let alone illegal immigrants.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

Well, I'm a non-emotional scientist on the issue. Show me in dollar figures how illegal immigrants are a net negative for the economy. (Personal surveys that I hear all too often, like, "who crowds the E.R." are not scientific.) In my estimation, players like Goldman Sachs, Citi Group and BP are far more negative on our economy these days. Or, what about $10 BILLION a month in Afghanistan to fight a few hundred remaining Al-Quaeda members? Those are the things weighing down the economy. Again, anger at illegal immigrants is misdirected. The anger should be directed to the real trouble makers -- high finance, war profiteers, and a congress and executive branch bought and paid for by them.

I don't think you should reduce it to an either/or. It's really both.

Behind both issues is that our country and the world is controlled by a small elite that manipulates our economy and people for its own advantage.

The eilte wants to weaken ties to national sovereignty, and illegal immigration is one vehicle for promoting that (so that people will not think in terms of national identity, but a 'global village' one instead). Collapsing the world economy so the the global monetary system can be centralized is yet another way to centralize power/control in the hands of an elite.

We are moving toward the one world totalitarian state George Orwell warned us about, and the two issues you raise are both different vehicles the elite is using to get us there.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by strategery52

Another thought on property taxes: California's greatest asset is its location itself. Everybody wants to live here, and people will be willing to pay to do so. So doesn't it make sense that tax revenue should be based more heavily on property? Income and business taxes should be lowered at the same time to encourage businesses to bring themselves here (after all, most businesses don't care how pleasant the climate is).

But let's remember that California's government is essentically strait-jacketed by the web of voter-approved intiatives that delegate the majority of the state's budget before it even reaches the lawmakers.

On your first point, property tax revenues typically go up 4% to 7% in normal times. The whole "abolish Prop 13" argument is BS. The real financial problems are on the spending side. Illegal immigration and pensions for public sector workers is where the action is (I work in the public sector. I've seen the numbers for the pension obligations. They're really ugly).

I'd also say the way the MediCal program works could probably use reform as well. America spends more on health care than any developed country, yet we definitely don't have the healthiest people. The politicians have been throwing more and more tax dollars at health insurance but we are going to go broke paying for all this health care if we don't 1. Focus on preventing the development of chronic diseaes (through finding a way to promote healthy eating without being draconian about it. We did it with smoking...now time to find a way to do it with food). And 2. making the health care system more efficient/accountable. It's been estimated that 1/3 of all health care is ineffective/unnecessary. We can't afford this!

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

Well, I'm a non-emotional scientist on the issue. Show me in dollar figures how illegal immigrants are a net negative for the economy. (Personal surveys that I hear all too often, like, "who crowds the E.R." are not scientific.) In my estimation, players like Goldman Sachs, Citi Group and BP are far more negative on our economy these days. Or, what about $10 BILLION a month in Afghanistan to fight a few hundred remaining Al-Quaeda members? Those are the things weighing down the economy. Again, anger at illegal immigrants is misdirected. The anger should be directed to the real trouble makers -- high finance, war profiteers, and a congress and executive branch bought and paid for by them.

You really think they are'nt costing tax payers a LOT of money? Even people who are neutral on it know better. We have wars going on but that doesn't excuse our other problems too.

Illegal immigrants are a factor in the budget gap math - Los Angeles Times

You can google up hundreds of hits, all stating billions in cost.

[ndfmnlf]

Isn't it ironic that any discussion of overpopulation always boils down to: it's the other guy's fault. He's the one overpopulating the earth. The solution (stated and unstated) then becomes: eliminate the other guy.

Fact is, those who complain of overpopulation are themselves part of the problem. So who wants to volunteer to remove themselves from our overpopulated earth? You are free to do so.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Isn't it ironic that any discussion of overpopulation always boils down to: it's the other guy's fault. He's the one overpopulating the earth. The solution (stated and unstated) then becomes: eliminate the other guy.

Fact is, those who complain of overpopulation are themselves part of the problem. So who wants to volunteer to remove themselves from our overpopulated earth? You are free to do so.

True leaders lead by example.

[jbunniii]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Isn't it ironic that any discussion of overpopulation always boils down to: it's the other guy's fault. He's the one overpopulating the earth. The solution (stated and unstated) then becomes: eliminate the other guy.

Fact is, those who complain of overpopulation are themselves part of the problem. So who wants to volunteer to remove themselves from our overpopulated earth? You are free to do so.

I don't think anyone is advocating removing existing people from the earth, but instead reducing the reproduction rate so that the population will eventually stabilize or decline.

Also, the original subject was CALIFORNIA overpopulation. That can be solved by simple migration to underpopulated states, and indeed eventually that will occur naturally as the state population reaches an unsustainable level (e.g., not enough water to go around, housing too expensive for most people to afford, etc.)