California #1 in taxes! Now where do we all go? (San Diego: rent, lawyer)
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Biggest drop in current period (80%+) is clearly due to the income tax revenue decrease, so it is clearly a financial problem created by job loss. Every other revenue issue is minor.
I wonder for how long Washington and Nevada will go without state income taxes. Both states face the same issues we do. In fact relative to the total size of the Nevada budget their shortfall is even proportionally larger than ours. There isn't the same crisis due to their economy and population being much smaller and thus the size of their government being considerably less. Chris Gregoire of Washington is having to make similar cuts and tough choices as Arnold. The difference is that Gregoire and Jim Gibbons don't have to deal with a two thirds rule in their state legislatures, and both WA and NV have more functional legislatures than our own as a result.
I've often wondered how Christine Gregoire got herself and the State of Washington into this problem? If I remember correctly, WA had a substantial surplus when she took office.
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Originally Posted by majoun
I have friends living in Switzerland. They routinely go to Italy when they need to make big purchases because the sales taxes are lower.
Switzerland is crazy expensive... part of the reason might be they are not part of the EU and Swiss Currency is seen as a haven of stability in tough times?
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Originally Posted by majoun
The number of people fleeing CA in the '70s was nowhere near the number who left in the last two decades. CA had a big influx of people in the '70s not dominated by any one particular group. For everyone who left, there were far more coming in.
And yes I'm aware of Mello-Roos which helps "get around" Prop 13's limits.
In the late 70's it seemed that all of our retired neighbors were moving out of State due to the high cost of living... ever increasing property taxes were a constant topic of conversation in the neighborhood. Of course, many of them were going back to the States where they had come from during the War Years and Post War California Boom... southern states were very popular.
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Originally Posted by majoun
Oakland is different....(maybe that should be the city's new slogan.....)
I like it
Seems there isn't a new tax Oakland voter won't approve until just recently...
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 02-12-2009 at 03:49 PM..
Well, let's see.. already bought a car and a piano in 2008, and housing values are going down so property taxes will be lower when I buy a house (in 3-4 years).. once again, I win by not being part of this whole mess.
The 2/3 Prop 13 requirement is routinely met in my City of Oakland for schools, police, fire, library, parks and even for a new sports stadium...
Voters are able to overcome Prop 13 limits by a 2/3 vote...
Oakland is NOT a good example at all, they are one of the highest taxed cities and have little to show for it. I don't get why they keep pushing up their taxes while the city continues to fall apart. Also the Bay Area is a lot more inclined to increase taxes than many other parts of the state even though it doesn't yield a better quality of life. Other parts of the state are different, it is VERY difficult to get any tax increase passed in San Diego. People won't even pass an increase in the hotel tax, which tourists pay, to fund a countywide fire department despite having two catastrophic wildfires in the last 5 years.
Transportation measures are pretty much the only tax increase voters ever approve from what I notice.
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Prop 13 benefits every property owner if for no other reason than it provides stability and predictability... Very little is subject to interpretation... Property is taxed according to the set formula and revenues are easily projected...
And it screws those that don't own property and want to own a home by artificially jacking up housing costs through development fees, assessments, etc and helping to restrict the supply of housing since cities would rather build retail that produces revenue. Also if you live in anything but an upper middle class area good luck with the public schools.
Prop 13 is by far the worst public policy this state has ever enacted. Not that property tax exemptions or limitations are bad in general but Prop 13 is horrible for so many reasons.
I'm not sure why everyone is upset about our property taxes. When we moved to Texas our property taxes (Bexar county) were 3% and they were reassessed every year. We are CA natives and we've always thought our property taxes were quite reasonable. We moved to Texas, had a million dollar home and our property tax was $30,000 a year! We have never, ever paid anything even remotely close to that in CA - and we still don't! But wherever you go, you have to pay Federal income tax.
Agreed...
I would pay a little more than double my California rate if I were in Texas... and then I would have to deal with the yearly reassessments not subject to CA Prop 13 limits
Oakland is NOT a good example at all, they are one of the highest taxed cities and have little to show for it. I don't get why they keep pushing up their taxes while the city continues to fall apart. Also the Bay Area is a lot more inclined to increase taxes than many other parts of the state even though it doesn't yield a better quality of life. Other parts of the state are different, it is VERY difficult to get any tax increase passed in San Diego. People won't even pass an increase in the hotel tax, which tourists pay, to fund a countywide fire department despite having two catastrophic wildfires in the last 5 years.
Transportation measures are pretty much the only tax increase voters ever approve from what I notice.
You make an interesting point... I'm third generation Oakland and I do attend city council meetings... I'm often at a loss for why my city does the things it does... I do know voters are very generous when it comes to approving new taxes... property taxes are nearly 50% higher than Prop 13's Statewide rate of 1% ... we have special taxes on cell phones, Internet, utilities, Gross Receipts, Rentals, Rent Board Registration and the list continues... While not a tax, Auto and Home Insurance also cost more...
What can I say other than Oakland leadership is not politically diverse and one would have to look hard to find a program or tax not endorsed by my City leaders. We spend nearly 15k per student and it's still not enough
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Originally Posted by sav858
And it screws those that don't own property and want to own a home by artificially jacking up housing costs through development fees, assessments, etc and helping to restrict the supply of housing since cities would rather build retail that produces revenue. Also if you live in anything but an upper middle class area good luck with the public schools.
Housing is in free fall. Right now there are over 260 homes for sale in my Bay Area city for under 100k... a mortage is less expensive than renting in many cases... I venture to say none of these homes comes with any special development fees and/or assessments... and all this is in one of the Highest Cost areas to to live nationwide and only minutes from downtown San Francisco... easily accessed by multiple means of public transportation.
Homes that sold in the mid 300k range as recently as 2 years ago are available for 60 to 80k.
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Originally Posted by sav858
Prop 13 is by far the worst public policy this state has ever enacted. Not that property tax exemptions or limitations are bad in general but Prop 13 is horrible for so many reasons.
In the pre Prop 13 days... the Home Owner's Tax Exemption of $7500 was meaningful when the median CA home was 15k... The static $7500 Home Owner exemption was becoming nothing more than a joke as the price of homes escalated in the 70's.
CA legislature had plenty of opportunities to respond and failed to do so... many on our late legislators were actually relieved to pass the problem to the voters and were in disbelief that Prop 13 actually passed... ever since... Prop 13 has been the whipping boy for all the ails CA.
I doubt we would have a Prop 13 if the Legislature would have made the Home Owner Exemption meaningful and index it for inflation. I know... could of, would of, should of...
I agree that a Grass Roots campaign like Prop 13 should never been necessary... Voters reached a point of frustration and the government leaders of the time were all to happy to hand over their responsibility...
Prop 13 won't please everybody... nothing can. What it does is provide stability and predictability into the system.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 02-12-2009 at 05:49 PM..
I'm not sure why everyone is upset about our property taxes. When we moved to Texas our property taxes (Bexar county) were 3% and they were reassessed every year. We are CA natives and we've always thought our property taxes were quite reasonable. We moved to Texas, had a million dollar home and our property tax was $30,000 a year! We have never, ever paid anything even remotely close to that in CA - and we still don't! But wherever you go, you have to pay Federal income tax.
Buying a million dollar house in Texas and complaining about the taxes is like buying Mercedes S class and complaining about the cost of oil changes or premium fuel. You could have bought a very nice house there for 1/3 as much. And lets not forget Texas' lack of income tax.
Housing is in free fall. Right now there are over 260 homes for sale in my Bay Area city for under 100k... a mortage is less expensive than renting in many cases... I venture to say none of these homes comes with any special development fees and/or assessments... and all this is in one of the Highest Cost areas to to live nationwide and only minutes from downtown San Francisco... easily accessed by multiple means of public transportation.
Homes that sold in the mid 300k range as recently as 2 years ago are available for 60 to 80k.
I was speaking in more general terms. What is happening now is not normal at all and there won't be a flood of low cost foreclosures once this mess is over with. Although there are some real good deals out there right now, I just wish I was in a position to purchase.
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CA legislature had plenty of opportunities to respond and failed to do so... many on our late legislators were actually relieved to pass the problem to the voters and were in disbelief that Prop 13 actually passed... ever since... Prop 13 has been the whipping boy for all the ails CA.
I doubt we would have a Prop 13 if the Legislature would have made the Home Owner Exemption meaningful and index it for inflation. I know... could of, would of, should of...
I agree, I don't mind caps and they are necessary when you have real estate booms like we just had. A cap tied to inflation makes total sense to me and that is the thing that bugs the hell out of me about Prop 13, it caps it at a rate below the average rate of inflation.
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Prop 13 won't please everybody... nothing can. What it does is provide stability and predictability into the system.
I wouldn't quite say that. Our over reliance on income taxes due to the limitations of property tax revenue makes the state's revenue stream very volatile.
Also it seems property tax revenue can vary a lot depending on how many homes are bought and sold. The latest real estate boom/bust/mess showed how much they can go up and down. But that is not normal of course for the most part.
Also knowing that housing will not pay for itself in the long run causes cities to compete with each other for sales tax revenue, creating a whole another issue with regards to planning and land zoned for residential development.
Caps and limits are fine but Prop 13 just goes too far imo and few politicians will even come within a mile of that issue.
Buying a million dollar house in Texas and complaining about the taxes is like buying Mercedes S class and complaining about the cost of oil changes or premium fuel. You could have bought a very nice house there for 1/3 as much. And lets not forget Texas' lack of income tax.
I'm not complaining - I moved! The homes we've had (and currently have) in CA are in the million+ category and NEVER did we ever pay anywhere near $30,000 for property tax. We don't care about the state income tax. Hubby's a tax lawyer. Everywhere you go you will py a Federal income tax. I'd rather we pay our Federal income tax and live in CA where our property taxes arent so high.
I'm not complaining - I moved! The homes we've had (and currently have) in CA are in the million+ category and NEVER did we ever pay anywhere near $30,000 for property tax. We don't care about the state income tax. Hubby's a tax lawyer. Everywhere you go you will py a Federal income tax. I'd rather we pay our Federal income tax and live in CA where our property taxes arent so high.
But the fact is that a million dollar house in CA is not a million dollar house in Texas. You didn't need to spend that much in TX (and pay that much tax) to get the level of house you were used to in California.
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We have never, ever paid anything even remotely close to that in CA - and we still don't! But wherever you go, you have to pay Federal income tax.
