This is real! (private schools, living in, statistics)

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by bayarea-girl

Lovehound, I think you are coming in at the very end of this post and didn't read threw the whole post. phloxy actually wrote that people are in jail because of racism and what I am saying is that everyone in jail is NOT in jail because of racial injustices.

This topic is getting confusing to me, and due to my excess available time and no good point to my life I may be over-focusing on forum posts.

I regret if I have compounded the confusion.

Originally Posted by nmnita

I guess I worded that wrong, You are right, of course it is not the governments resposibility: I t is Phloxy who thinks it is the governments resposibility and we should give our tax $$S to agencies that will solve the problems of society. These problems have always been there and will always be there. I agree with you 100%..

Years ago I taught an adult education class: cooking on a limited budget. ... None of them cared about making healthy chicken soup for pennies or buying quality day old bread instead of cheap sandwhich white bread..they couldn't crasp why fried food wasn't good for them or how to teach the kids to eat something other than chips after school..

I don't have much to add besides my first comments, but I recognize the validity of your points. (1) We cannot expect the government to guide us since it is the responsibility of us citizens to guide our government. And (2) I hear you regarding trying to teach people what is good for them. Sadly, with food, often the best tasting food is worst for your health, and the worst tasting food is best for your health. I struggle with this constantly, and I think I am getting the upper hand, but many if not most people don't even understand the issue, particularly as you pointed out, why fried food is bad for you. If you don't get that then you won't understand anything about nutrition or health.

[JustPassinThru]

Originally Posted by mmouwse

Thank you for sharing your experience here. I am sorry for the impact it must have had on you. I remember those cases well and also the truth that finally came to light years later, after individual lives and families had been unjustly imprisoned and destroyed.
!

Thanks for your reply, but I was only a bystander. The greatest impact was on the children that were coerced into telling lies that put their parents and grandparents in prison. Some have written books in order to exorcise their demons.

A jury sentenced my relative to 64 years for something that never happened. It is amazing what a group of frightened, angry men and women can do in the name of justice. Pretty close to a modern day lynching.

Once convicts are released, it is difficult for them to find work, and they're not permitted to hide their criminal history. Is it hard to believe that many of them resort to criminal activities to survive? More programs which would aid them in fitting back into society would benefit everyone.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by JustPassinThru

Thanks for your reply, but I was only a bystander. The greatest impact was on the children that were coerced into telling lies that put their parents and grandparents in prison. Some have written books in order to exorcise their demons.

A jury sentenced my relative to 64 years for something that never happened. It is amazing what a group of frightened, angry men and women can do in the name of justice. Pretty close to a modern day lynching.

Once convicts are released, it is difficult for them to find work, and they're not permitted to hide their criminal history. Is it hard to believe that many of them resort to criminal activities to survive? More programs which would aid them in fitting back into society would benefit everyone.

It might be amazing what a group of frightened men and women can do, it works the other way. I served on a federal jury a few years ago. The defendent was as guilty as could be but we had a hung jury, why? Because one juror admitted in so many words she didn't trust or like cops so she didn't believe their testimory.. The guy was re-tried, I do not know what happened, I am sure he was found guilty, but think of the cost to the tax payer?? One jerk and we had no choice but to report we could not reach a verdict..So, it works both ways. Now, I ask you bleeding hearts, what is a better system then what we have in our country???

Nita

[phloxy]

Originally Posted by nmnita

I t is Phloxy who thinks it is the governments resposibility and we should give our tax $$S to agencies that will solve the problems of society.

Hmm. Not exactly. I don't think government should do everything for everyone. But I'd much rather see improvements in education, more after school programs, and improved access to mental health care and intervention for abuse situations than I would a bunch of money going down the drain trying to do something after a crime is committed.

Preventing people from turning to crime is a better investment.

Maybe the public school systems are in great shape where you all live and no one is slipping through the cracks as far as mental health is concerned. It's certainly not true in my community, though. Some of my high-functioning, law-abiding coworkers can't get the help they need, even with insurance, so I have a feeling that mental health is a luxury for those of lesser means.

[phloxy]

Originally Posted by bayarea-girl

phloxy, ok for real are you seriously trying to compare criminal activity with sick time and office supplies? That is CRAZY! If CA is still set to release prisoners in the thousands I'll just tell them to find you so that they can live next door to you.

Um, no. Geez! I was merely pointing out that if "the difference between right and wrong" is One Noble Truth that everyone knows, then many of us find justifications to skirt it, even if it's not something that puts us in jail. It's a difference in degree, not kind. People find justifications for all kinds of things. And sometimes it's life circumstances that contribute to and help form those justifications.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by phloxy

Hmm. Not exactly. I don't think government should do everything for everyone. But I'd much rather see improvements in education, more after school programs, and improved access to mental health care and intervention for abuse situations than I would a bunch of money going down the drain trying to do something after a crime is committed.

Preventing people from turning to crime is a better investment.

Maybe the public school systems are in great shape where you all live and no one is slipping through the cracks as far as mental health is concerned. It's certainly not true in my community, though. Some of my high-functioning, law-abiding coworkers can't get the help they need, even with insurance, so I have a feeling that mental health is a luxury for those of lesser means.

It isn't true in most communities, but I still do not think it is up to the schools to be parents, that is what is happening. AS for slipping through the cracks that has always happened and always will. There is absolutely no fool proof way to be certain some will not end up left out. As for things like after school programs, again, almost all school districts offer something, especially in the lower income areas..

You may have your heart in the right place, but I don't think your head is. We can not save everyone.

Nita

[phloxy]

Originally Posted by nmnita

You may have your heart in the right place, but I don't think your head is. We can not save everyone.

Of course we can't save anyone, but we also can't just say, oh well, not everyone can be saved so it's not worth helping anyone or taking a hard look at the system to figure out where we're going so wrong.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by phloxy

Of course we can't save anyone, but we also can't just say, oh well, not everyone can be saved so it's not worth helping anyone or taking a hard look at the system to figure out where we're going so wrong.

When you watch the government try over and over, using different plans and none seem to work, yes, you can, pretty much say: let's do what we can and certainly not give up, but you still seem to think we can save the world. I wish you were right, I don't think many babies are born bad, but I don't think sinking more money into after school activities, more into trying to educate the kids who do not want to learn or free health care, physically or mentally will work..The first thing that has to be done is find a way to keep kids from having kids and teaching parents and kids, it is not society's fault they are in trouble, it is their own...Start from day one (in the home, not the schools) making kids aware of the consequences for mis-behaving..
Nita

[Lovehound]

I'll agree with you Nita that the first level of the solution is to encourage "breeders" to quit breeding.

The people who we need to multiply are setting an example to have 2 or less children. The people who are worst at raising good citizen are having 6, 8 or 10 children (or 14 in the case of the octo-mom).

It seems that population increases dictate that those who raise the most children are the ones who least take care of family values, and those who are concerned about family values raise the fewest children.

It seems like the odds are rigged that in this society those who are least capable of raising responsible citizens raise the most, and those who are most capable of raising responsible citizens raise the fewest.

We are shooting ourselves in our foot.

[phloxy]

I also think that we can't expect people who are caught up in generational poverty to suddenly become A+ parents when their kids arrive. If you're working two jobs just to make ends meet and still aren't making ends meet, there's not a lot of time for helping with homework or other quality parenting tasks. If your parents didn't teach you the value of education you might not teach it to your kids either. Or maybe your parents were even worse and you're just continuing that lifestyle (alcoholism, abuse) And yet the opposite does happen. There are many fine examples of people struggling and raising their kids under bad circumstances and those kids turning out to be high achievers (higher achievers sometimes than their privileged counterparts in private schools).

I would never suggest that we just throw money at a problem and that will make it go away. Clearly that has not been working. But it just seems to me that there are kids (and parents) out there who want opportunities and deserve an equal chance--or could become motivated to seek them despite their circumstances--and we need to do a better job of figuring out who they are and helping them get that access. Some people will make good choices if the those choices don't always seem to be just out of reach for them (or are choices that aren't even on their radar because that's never the way things have been in their experience).

I also think that it's not just poor people who sometimes do a crappy job raising their kids. A whole generation of me-first, selfish little brats are being created at income levels of all kinds. I am really glad I am not an school teacher. :-)