Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am currently living in San Diego....and all I want is to get the hell out of Southern CA. The people here are the most self-important bastards. They'd as soon run you over with their SUVs than stop for you while you're in the crosswalk.
....I'm so over SoCal.
V. =)
Where in California are you interested in moving to?
It is definitely worse in California. And made worse by the policies coming out of Sacramento.
Did you realize that the reason why employers commonly provide health insurance benefits for employees dates back to WWII when there were wage controls in place. If the government had not instituted the wage controls then it is likely that people would be buying their own health insurance that they could take from job to job.
Out of curiosity, Sheri257, is there anything about California that you don't like?
Where's your proof that Sacramento policies are driving business out of the state? I'd like to see a link because all I'm hearing are vague statements, no specifics and, certainly, no proof.
Because, as I mentioned earlier ... I'm seeing a massive commercial construction boom in my area where business is growing. If business was really leaving en masse as you guys claim ... there would be no reason to build all of these malls, office buildings, industrial parks, etc.
So it's not ok for California government to regulate business but it was ok for the federal government to have wage controls during WWII so business could buy health insurance for their employees?
Which is it? Or ... is government regulation that only you can profit from the only government regulation that is tolerable?
And no ... there's not much about California that I don't like. In fact, I love this state ... which is why I live here.
Last time I checked this is the California forum so, shockingly ... people who love California will post here from time to time ... not just the California haters.
I worked for years in manufacturing and NOT ONE of the manufacturing companies is still here... manufacturing provided living wages and benefits.
The manufacturing ecomony has been gone for a long time ... not just from California but the nation as a whole ... That's over and done with. I'm not sure why you'd even expect it to remain in California or any other state for that matter. It's all overseas now.
But again, that's a nationwide problem, not a problem that's exclusive to California.
As for San Francisco and other coastal areas ... the California economy is changing, no question about it. The population and business growth is all heading inland.
The inland areas are now the future boom areas of the state now. That's where you see all of the new commercial construction and business growth.
Where's your proof that Sacramento policies are driving business out of the state? I'd like to see a link because all I'm hearing are vague statements, no specifics and, certainly, no proof.
Because, as I mentioned earlier ... I'm seeing a massive commercial construction boom in my area where business is growing. If business was really leaving en masse as you guys claim ... there would be no reason to build all of these malls, office buildings, industrial parks, etc.
So it's not ok for California government to regulate business but it was ok for the federal government to have wage controls during WWII so business could buy health insurance for their employees?
Which is it? Or ... is government regulation that only you can profit from the only government regulation that is tolerable?
And no ... there's not much about California that I don't like. In fact, I love this state ... which is why I live here.
Last time I checked this is the California forum so, shockingly ... people who love California will post here from time to time ... not just the California haters.
Examples of Sacramento policies (and rhetoric) that are driving businesses out of state:
1) Some of the highest taxes in the country.
2) Some of the highest workers comp rates in the country. The legislature had the opportunity to adopt the Arizona system that would have drastically reduced rates. Admittedly, rates have went down since the reforms of 3 or 4 years ago but they are still over double where we are moving. It also appears they have bottomed out.
3) The coming mandate for some manufacturers to keep track of greenhouse gases. This mandate will not apply to my company as it is currently written but when we are deciding whether we want to build a warehouse in California and remain here for years and years there is always a threat that the state could extend this to all industries. This is not the place for a global warming debate but the amount of gases emitted by California manufacturers is nearly zero in the big picture. This kind of mandate increases the costs and paperwork of companies.
4) The mandate to pay overtime for any hours over 8 in a day. This sounds great until you realize that it limits the option for your employees to work 4 ten hour days during the week. It also limits that ability for an employee to leave early one day (like one of mine did for jury duty yesterday) and make it up on another day during the week. There is a way to set a 4x10 work week but it involves an election by the employees and notifying the state. More paperwork and hassle.
5) The chronic overspending in Sacramento. That makes it more likely that taxes will only go up. My personal rate is already 9.3% with a 1% surcharge, in part because my income appears to be more than it really is because we are a sub-S corporation.
6) The talk of requiring us to put in a thermostat that the state can control. The state backed off this one but they are still requiring the thermostat and they just say they won't control it at this point. I am not the one of those voting against people who oppose new power plants.
7) I spent one hour one day figuring out our tonnage report for our state feed license and then sent a check for less than $2 for our tax.
8) The talk of a universal health care mandate for California businesses. The government messed this up in the first place, as I noted in my post about WWII. (By the way, you misread my statement - the wage controls should never have been put in place and largely led to the mess we are in now.) The proposal by the democrats would have made private health insurance obsolete. The state would have basically taken over the health insurance business. They claim they would use the current private insurers and that might have been true but the state would be collecting the premiums.
Is that enough specifics for you?
Do you want to know the good things about doing business in California?
1) A good, capable workforce
2) Good, mild weather
3) Close proximity to companies that supply and repair our equipment
4) Close proximity to many of our suppliers
5) Close proximity to many of our customers
6) Close proximity to trade shows
There are definitely good things about doing business in California. In our case, the bad outweighs the good, especially when we are going to make a substantial investment in building our own custom facility.
Look, I was hoping this portion of the thread would die. Don't call me out anymore and hopefully it will. (By that I mean don't make unfounded assumptions about me or my company and don't imply that my views are unfounded. Of course, I am not saying that you shouldn't reply if you feel so inclined.)
I am glad you love California. Some people do and I have no criticism for that. But if you can't see anything negative about it then your view is one-sided. It just makes it sound like you are defending your church and not your state. When I go to other states' forums I don't see the zealousness that I see in California's forums. I can't decide if it is arrogance or defensiveness. I suppose it could be either.
Last edited by Niners fan; 03-01-2008 at 10:18 AM..
"Where's your proof that Sacramento policies are driving business out of California?"
You've got to be kidding! This cheer leading, Pollyanna stuff really can go too far.
Have you ever run a business? Have you ever had to deal with California's business regulations and make a payroll? Ask any business owner what he thinks of California's business climate. The California legislature is the businessman's worst enemy. Our business was regulated by the worst sort of bureaucrats imaginable. Instead of spending my time growing our business I spent literally hundreds of hours in my law firm's office trying to make sense out of the byzantine regulations that the legislature drew up when they decided to regulate our industry. Naive as I was I thought that bureaucrats were just clumsy oafs who fumbled their way through life, but had no real ill intentions. Not true. They are a very clever, cunning lot with no regard for honest, fair behavior. We fought them off for ten years and then moved out of CA mostly for other reasons (50 jobs gone).
One of my friends in Apple Valley moved his business to Vancouver because he could not depend on California's electrical service (40 jobs gone). Every time a brownout occurred it cost him tens of thousands of dollars in destroyed production as his curing ovens shut down. California's electrical shortages are the result of short sighted thinking by the legislature along with obstructionsit moves by the enviro nuts.
I and my business-owner friends who moved away may miss the weather but we sure enjoy the freedom to run our businesses outside of Califronia. What a difference - you just can't imagine it! And well-educated workers are much easier to get at fair wages.
I 2nd that post COB... you hit the nail on the head!
uh.. sheri..... lots of businesses have closed up in Turlock... and YES they keep building and building more office space and they keep sitting and sitting.. EMPTY... my husb is self employed and has been VERY successful but we are tired of being taxed to death... he has never had a slowdown of anykind... you can see empty buildings everywhere... noticed quite a few heading north up 99 this last week also... sure they keep building but are they actually getting many tenants and are they staying?? the building depts are a joke in this state... he's done business all over this state and it's the same everywhere... yah so there are millions of peeps here... it just seems everyone we talk to lately is frustrated ... the only place I get any 'rah rah's' for this state are the few in here... LOL it's really kinda sad... cause I was born and raised here and NEVER thought I would leave. Now we can't wait to let the door hit us in the butt... :-)
I 2nd that post COB... you hit the nail on the head!
uh.. sheri..... lots of businesses have closed up in Turlock... and YES they keep building and building more office space and they keep sitting and sitting.. EMPTY... my husb is self employed and has been VERY successful but we are tired of being taxed to death... he has never had a slowdown of anykind... you can see empty buildings everywhere... noticed quite a few heading north up 99 this last week also... sure they keep building but are they actually getting many tenants and are they staying?? the building depts are a joke in this state... he's done business all over this state and it's the same everywhere... yah so there are millions of peeps here... it just seems everyone we talk to lately is frustrated ... the only place I get any 'rah rah's' for this state are the few in here... LOL it's really kinda sad... cause I was born and raised here and NEVER thought I would leave. Now we can't wait to let the door hit us in the butt... :-)
Examples of Sacramento policies (and rhetoric) that are driving businesses out of state:
Is that enough specifics for you?
Well ... that's the problem ... most of it is rhetoric. Not exactly something to hang your hat on ... I do see your point about the taxes and workers comp issues but, most of this stuff either didn't happen or hasn't happened.
* The greenhouse emissions requirements doesn't affect you so ... I'm not sure why it matters in your case.
* Spending only an hour on a state license doesn't sound like a horrible waste of time to me. And, in this case, you only had to pay $2 in tax so ... there doesn't seem to be a major problem there.
* As far as the 4 ten hour day issue, tons of businesses have done it and do it every day. It's not a big deal.
* Sacramento hasn't raised taxes so, why even worry about it unless it happens. Just about every state and local government in the country is hurting right now due to the housing crisis and recession so ... the threat of increased taxes is nationwide.
* As I've said before, the thermostat thing is just silly and isn't going anywhere.
* The healthcare thing died also. Both Democratic presidential candidates have proposed similar plans so, even if you move to another state ... it could happen everywhere, not just California. But again, I'll believe it when I see it.
Quite frankly, this isn't much of an indictment of the Calfornia business climate. Seems to me that you just don't like California's liberal politics which, is understandable since you're obviously conservative.
But ... that doesn't mean it's actually bad for business.
As business owners you want to make more money and I understand that. And, as business owners, the easiest and usually most profitable way to do that is to cut labor costs ... basically at the expense of your workers. I'm not criticizing it per se, it's just what American business has become these days.
And, California does make it harder for businesses to do that. Many other states have no labor unions, fewer overtime rules, no higher minimum wage requirements, etc. like California does.
So when you go on and on about California's unfavorable business climate ... we all know what you're really complaining about .... it's California's pro-worker legal and regulatory environment.
Because the fact is: you don't want to pay overtime, you don't want to have to pay for more health insurance, you don't want to have to pay a higher minimum wage, workers comp ... etc.
And I wouldn't expect you as business owners to want to pay those things ... which is why you go ballistic when California even just talks about mandating health insurance or similar proposals.
But don't be disingenuous and pretend that you're concerned about the middle class ... you're looking out for you.
You may be middle class but, so are your workers .... and those laws and regulations actually help your middle class workers by forcing you to pay for things you ordinarily wouldn't.
So, in that sense, I'm sure the business climate in other states is better for you but, I'm also convinced that it's not better for your workers.
If you're going to take your business out of state because of it ... that's fine by me. Because as far as I'm concerned, California doesn't need more mediocre paying jobs with no health insurance or other benefits.
Those jobs should go to other states because California IS about helping workers. This state will do just fine without you. It is, afterall, the 8th largest economy in the world.
Well there you have it. The thinking of the party that rules California politics with a death grip put into simple words.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
you hit the nail on the head!
