Who has tried moving to another state (population, jobs)

[mhouse2001]

Originally Posted by sheri257

Those jobs should go to other states because California IS about helping workers. This state will do just fine without you. It is, afterall, the 8th largest economy in the world.

I agree with your assessment. As a worker, I'd much prefer the safeties that working in California provides. Try working in most other states and you'll soon discover that you are disposable on a whim. This idea that we have to bend over for business interests or make running a business more easily profitable and risk-free is insane. This country is made of people, not businesses. At least in California that idea has some teeth.

[sheri257]

Originally Posted by cobmw

Well there you have it. The thinking of the party that rules California politics with a death grip put into simple words.

Death grip? Where do you get this stuff?

I hate to break the news but, just because you and a couple of friends left the state ... doesn't mean the entire California economy came to a screeching halt.

The California economy is HUGE ... ranked in the top ten with other, major industrialized nations.

Economy of California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see Colorado or, any other state for that matter, on those lists ...

[Niners fan]

Originally Posted by sheri257

Let's get to the bottom line here:

As business owners you want to make more money and I understand that. And, as business owners, the easiest and usually most profitable way to do that is to cut labor costs ... basically at the expense of your workers. I'm not criticizing it per se, it's just what American business has become these days.

And, California does make it harder for businesses to do that. Many other states have no labor unions, fewer overtime rules, no higher minimum wage requirements, etc. like California does.

So when you go on and on about California's unfavorable business climate ... we all know what you're really complaining about .... it's California's pro-worker legal and regulatory environment.

Because the fact is: you don't want to pay overtime, you don't want to have to pay for more health insurance, you don't want to have to pay a higher minimum wage, workers comp ... etc.

And I wouldn't expect you as business owners to want to pay those things ... which is why you go ballistic when California even just talks about mandating health insurance or similar proposals.

But don't be disingenuous and pretend that you're concerned about the middle class ... you're looking out for you.

You may be middle class but, so are your workers .... and those laws and regulations actually help your middle class workers by forcing you to pay for things you ordinarily wouldn't.

So, in that sense, I'm sure the business climate in other states is better for you but, I'm also convinced that it's not better for your workers.

If you're going to take your business out of state because of it ... that's fine by me. Because as far as I'm concerned, California doesn't need more mediocre paying jobs with no health insurance or other benefits.

Those jobs should go to other states because California IS about helping workers. This state will do just fine without you. It is, afterall, the 8th largest economy in the world.

I can see why you are happy in California. So many people here see businesses as a necessary evil out to screw over workers. Our company has an extremely low turnover rate because we strive to treat our workers well. Because you apparently have never run a business you don't realize that most businesses consider their employees to be their most valuable asset. Sometimes we have to let people go but if we didn't then we would become bloated, uncompetitive, and everyone would lose their job. Of course, I am looking out for me. In the course of doing so over the past 4 years, we have created 24 decent paying jobs in California. All of those will be moving out of state now. I also personally pay at least 15 times more in state income tax then I did then. (In fact, the state and federal governments make more money from our company than we do! And they have never offered to pay for the cost of complying with regulations.)

I see business as an engine to create goods, services, innovations, wealth, a tax base, and jobs. By the way, the ONLY way to eliminate poverty is by creating wealth, not simply redistributing it.

I can't justify spending $2 million on a new warehouse in California even if a lot of what is coming out of Sacramento is rhetoric. Who knows what nutty idea is going to actually get implemented in the coming years that will cost us money and make us less competitive. I listed several policies that have already hurt us. Because so many politicians here have your view I don't trust that they will be concerned about how they might impact businesses in the state. Because so many people have bought into your view of businesses who knows if there will be a ballot proposition to tax businesses for a pet program. Don't tell me these are just hypotheticals. Voters passed a 1% income surcharge the hit sub-S corporations like mine for mental health funding.

I appreciate your views. But I think you would see things differently if you ran a business. I'm not talking about zero regulations. Nearly everyone agrees that government regulations have their place. But at some point they become choking. California puts regulations in place so many businesses move. The federal government also puts regulations on businesses (and has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the World). Then people complain when businesses won't sit still and pay "their fair share." And they complain about "outsourcing". My point is don't complain when businesses move out of California (often reluctantly and sadly).

[Niners fan]

Originally Posted by sheri257

I hate to break the news but, just because you and a couple of friends left the state ... doesn't mean the entire California economy came to a screeching halt.

The California economy is HUGE ... ranked in the top ten with other, major industrialized nations.

Um, Sheri, you do realize that cobmw, his friends, and I take middle class jobs with us when we leave, right? It might not be a big deal to the state just yet, but it was a big deal to those middle class workers who are affected.

Interestingly enough, since word got out that we are moving to Idaho in 18 months, I have had more people approach me looking for a job (so they could move with us) than the previous 2 years combined. Most of them cited the cost of living when I asked them why they wanted to move. Since the cost of taxes and regulations on businesses gets passed on to the consumer, most of whom are middle class, it seems like they are feeling the effects at least as much as my company is!

[sheri257]

All you've come up with is anecdotal information ... no hard evidence. However, if what you say is true ... how do you explain this?

Texas, for example, has long history of giving business pretty much everything it wants. They can fire their workers anytime they want to, they don't have labor unions to deal with, they have low taxes, less government regulation, even more land mass than California and, obviously, a lower cost of living. The list goes on and on.

So ... by this logic ...Texas' economy should have left California's economy in the dust a long time ago. Yet, Texas' GDP is still only half that of California's and ranks #15 compared with California's #9 on the World Bank list.

Economy of Texas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason is: you can give business much of what they want but, that's not necessarily good for the overall economy. If the workers are only making mediocre wages, they have no health or other benefits, there's not enough of a tax base to fight crime (which, btw, is a major problem both in Houston and Dallas) then the economy is hurt in other ways ...

Yeah ... the top guys do well, really well ... but the overall economy doesn't do as well as it should because, basically .... you're becoming a third world country.

Of course, this is what you guys argue about California but, this is much more of a problem in places like Texas where business rules and the wages, benefits, etc. are pathetic.

[Niners fan]

Originally Posted by sheri257

All you've come up with is anecdotal information ... no hard evidence. However, if what you say is true ... how do you explain this?

I think we both have made the case that liberal attitudes don't understand business and its role in the real economy.

Someone else can address the fallacies in your logic with Texas if they want to. I'm done with this part of the thread.

[austinaggie]

Uh, maybe the fact that California has over 10 million more residents than Texas may have something to do with their rankings. I see that Texas is ranked number 2 in the country. Wow, its economy really IS withering. Maybe that is why no one and I mean no one is moving there. Espcially no one from California.

[sheri257]

Originally Posted by austinaggie

Uh, maybe the fact that California has over 10 million more residents than Texas may have something to do with their rankings. I see that Texas is ranked number 2 in the country. Wow, its economy really IS withering. Maybe that is why no one and I mean no one is moving there. Espcially no one from California.

Funny that you mention it ... but contrary to what you read on this board, the number of people moving to Texas is actually fairly insignificant ...

About 36,000 a year ... not that much. Especially when you compare it to the 190,000 people who move to Florida each year. Or, the 80,000 people who move to San Bernardino and Riverside counties each year ....

This idea that Californians are moving to Texas en masse is exaggerated. Sure, some people are moving there but, it's not nearly the amount that people claim.

Just FYI ... California has 15 million more people than Texas. I'm just wondering how that happened since people have been claiming that California has been driving business out of the state for decades now.

Afterall .... how did those 15 million extra people find work since the business climate is supposedly so horrible ...

[austinaggie]

Please tell me you are kidding. I have no idea where you got your figures but in 2006-2007 140,000 people from other states moved to Texas and 35,000 moved to Florida. Texas' total population grew by 2.1% and California's by .08 (mostly due to immigration and new births). If you think your figures are still correct after doing some real research please provide me with you references.

[sheri257]

Originally Posted by austinaggie

Please tell me you are kidding. I have no idea where you got your figures but in 2006-2007 140,000 people from other states moved to Texas and 35,000 moved to Florida. Texas' total population grew by 2.1% and California's by .08 (mostly due to immigration and new births). If you think your figures are still correct after doing some real research please provide me with you references.

It's Census Bureau data. It is true that Texas did see a big influx in 2006-2007 but, that was because of Katrina. Obviously that was an extraordinary event, not a typical migration year.

Before that, only 36,000 people were moving to Texas every year which, IMO, is a more accurate indicator of the number of people moving there for reasons other than catastrophe/natural disaster.