Who's really considering moving out of California (San Luis Obispo, Magalia: school, compensation)

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

Proposition 187 was California trying to deal with a defective federal policy regarding immigration and its social costs. It's not really surprising that it was struck down by the courts, although perhaps not for this reason: the federal government should address it. It's mind boggling that they still ignore it.

But I think that's where the problem comes into play. How do you, as a politician, come up with a solution that doesn't make you appear to be insensitive toward a group of people or local businesses? Because the only way to attack the problem is to deny services and take away the incentive for illegals to cross the border - take away the employment opportunities. That's going to cost people (and businesses) money and it's going to bring about some controversial humanitarian situations - both being bad for a politician.

You can target illegals like Prop 187 did, denying services like medical attention and education. But then you're running the risk of people not liking the idea of possibly letting people die or denying children an education simply because they're not citizens - both are pretty severe consequences that might cause voters to question you when you're up for reelection. Or you can put more responsibility on businesses to incur higher costs to do extensive background checks and fine them if they hire illegals. This will cost businesses money, and as a result, it can hurt the economy - something no politician wants to do, especially now. Will the business owners favor that approach? So then what?

A proposal was recently rejected by voters here in CO that would have put more responsibility on employers to not hire illegals. I really didn't see how it could fail. But it did. It seems the people want to complain about it but don't want to take any action that might cost them money to fix the problem. So you can't just put all the blame on the government for not doing anything about it.

I think California is in a tough situation. The state can nip the problem in the bud and force businesses to be liable for hiring illegals. I would bet it would reduce the opportunities for illegals big time. But can businesses afford to incur more operation costs, especially right now? Maybe the state can offer tax breaks to certain industries (like food prep, agriculture, manufacturing, etc) that provide proof that all of their employees are legal.

There doesn't appear to be an easy answer. Deportation alone costs money and it does nothing to remove the incentive. And unless you address the incentive, the threat of deportation and/or punishment will have little impact on people desperate to make a living. Many of them are already risking their lives to get here - why wouldn't they do it again if there is still work for them here?

Anyway, I doubt that illegal immigration alone is a major reason most people will leave California. It might be one of the reasons, but it's just one issue the state has to address. There are a number of other factors driving up the cost of living which need fixing.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

It's interesting, from the earlier era of the nation, lawlessness gradually decreased, probably right into the 1960s. Then the trend reversed. Oh sure there have been some temporary improvements, but many people now have a lawless attitude. Need more real sheriffs, plus more armed folks. An armed society is a polite society.

Funny how that works, huh? More armed people tend to make an area safer... except maybe in areas where poverty is more prevalent. I think places like Baltimore have quite a few armed people - they just happen to be the people you don't want to see armed.

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

It's interesting, from the earlier era of the nation, lawlessness gradually decreased, probably right into the 1960s. Then the trend reversed. Oh sure there have been some temporary improvements, but many people now have a lawless attitude. Need more real sheriffs, plus more armed folks. An armed society is a polite society.

I suspect it has something to do with popularized use of drugs, along with gangs powered by drug money.

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by Ludachris

... the only way to attack the problem is to deny services and take away the incentive for illegals to cross the border - take away the employment opportunities.

If employers were forced to follow the laws there would be no reason for them to come here. Would you go to Canada if you could get 10X your usual pay rate? I sure would!

[Ludachris]

I've been hearing in this forum from a number of people saying California is no longer the powerhouse it once was for the tech industry... that all the jobs have moved out of the state. I just found this article today and thought I'd share:
bizjournals: The Top 100 tech centers

Looks like California is still leading the way in terms of tech jobs. Maybe not as much as before, but still the strongest place to be for tech professionals. Maybe the trend is moving away from California like some think, but 4 out of the top 12 areas on the list are in California. And by looking at the sheer number of jobs in each area, it's pretty significant.

I suppose since the cost of living isn't factored in, it's tough to tell what the quality of life is in each of those urban areas even with the high number of jobs. Just another data point for people though.

[AKgirlinCA]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

You're a smart woman, AK girl. CA in general is not a good place to raise kids unless you have gobs of money, and maybe not even then.

Aww shucks! Thanks And to those have pointed out that not all areas of CA are congested/busy etc, I do realize that, and quite honestly I could probably be happy in an area like San Luis Obispo, or heck even Big Bear, but those places do not have the job opportunities needed by my husband and I, and the prices of homes just can't beat Texas combined with a business friendly government and jobs that actually pay in line with cost of living CA is headed down the tubes at a quick rate, and I'm not going to stand by and watch it get worse.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

If employers were forced to follow the laws there would be no reason for them to come here. Would you go to Canada if you could get 10X your usual pay rate? I sure would!

I agree. But to put all the responsibility on the employers will mean forcing businesses to incur more costs due to new processes and possible fines. And what business owner would want that? Who thinks that now is a good time to force businesses to take on more costs and liability? That would make California even less business friendly coupled with the tax rate. It could mean higher costs for the consumer and potential harm to the economy. Wouldn't you agree it poses a risk to any politician proposing it?

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by Ludachris

I agree. But to put all the responsibility on the employers will mean forcing businesses to incur more costs due to new processes and possible fines. And what business owner would want that? Who thinks that now is a good time to force businesses to take on more costs and liability? That would make California even less business friendly coupled with the tax rate. It could mean higher costs for the consumer and potential harm to the economy. Wouldn't you agree it poses a risk to any politician proposing it?

I'm sorry to disagree with you. What kind of businesses are hiring them? I bet it's mostly smaller businesses. If it's small businesses then they'll just pass the costs on to us, their customers. Would you be willing to pay more for a fast food hamburger? I sure would.

But what if it's the big employers? Are they going to move out of state if they have to comply? And just what jobs are going to be lost if they move out of state? The "under the counter" jobs?

[4beanie]

Originally Posted by Den Mathias

Which part of Texas would you recommend? I need some trees!

That was our criteria for Texas. We had to have trees. We went to North east Texas also called the piney woods. There were lots of oaks, pines and dogwoods. We are probably making an offer on a piece of property this week. It had an offer on it already but we were told this week that it was probably going to fall thru. 16 acres with an older 1500 sqaure foot home for 150k. We plan to live in the house while we build and deed some of the property to family and friends that are thinking about leaving Ca. Hope it all works out.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

I'm sorry to disagree with you. What kind of businesses are hiring them? I bet it's mostly smaller businesses. If it's small businesses then they'll just pass the costs on to us, their customers. Would you be willing to pay more for a fast food hamburger? I sure would.

But what if it's the big employers? Are they going to move out of state if they have to comply? And just what jobs are going to be lost if they move out of state? The "under the counter" jobs?

Disagreeing is what opens the door to new ways of thinking Don't be sorry for that.

It matters little about which types of businesses are actually hiring them since all businesses would be subjected to the same regulations and extra costs, not just the ones hiring illegals. That was the biggest reason I read about the proposition that failed here in Colorado. Businesses didn't want the added liability and extra costs being forced upon them, so they fought it and won.

Even though you assume they could just easily pass the costs on to the customer, businesses will still run the risk of losing sales because their products/services need to be priced higher. It may make them less competitive. It's easier for you and I to determine that they could make due with the added costs and regulations.

I think it's a little dangerous to assume that only "under the counter" jobs will be lost. California could potentially lose even more tax revenue from businesses leaving due to even more regulations being imposed upon them. Seems to me that's a significant risk. How business-unfriendly will California become?

I'm just stating the idea of there being risk by putting the responsibility on the employer. As easy as that solution sounds, it's still complicated. I still think it needs to be done to take away the incentive for illegals, but a lot of thought and careful planning would have to go into it.