If the Fed Govt bails out California (Orange: apartment, chapels)

[Des-Lab]

You guys better be careful what you wish for.

Look. I don't like paying for illegals either: Medical, schooling, housing, WIC, refusal to learn English, ad infinitum.

But let's also be honest here. We all know that nearly every single Conservative who stands there grandstanding with his "National Security" and "No Free Handouts" rhetoric will also be the very first one to look the other way when he discovers that Paco, José, and Jésus will mow his lawn for half the price that the blonde kids will.

If all these "mooching illegals" were to simply disappear, think of how quickly some of the things we take for granted like cheap unskilled to semi-skilled labor (construction, dishwashers, janitors, etc.) would collapse like the World Trade Center. You think that fresh fruit is expensive now? Wait till you see what it would cost if "Americans" picked it.

I think the real crux of the problem is that we as a society are a bunch of spoiled and narcissistic brats who want to have things both ways. And when the math dictates that we can't, we stand there jumping up and down having a fit and pointing the finger at everyone but the person who most deserves the blame. And in this case. It's yourself.

You want to solve the "problem" of illegals?

Fine. Don't hire them. Ever. Period. For anything. Don't even give them cash on the corner. Do not even buy those peanuts and oranges they are selling. And don't even THINK about patronizing those taco carts. And start ponying up the extra cash it will require to keep an honest to goodness American employed. If you want "the cheapest", fine. That's your choice. But next time you feel inclined to complain about illegals, put a sock in it.

Sorry to sound so coarse, esp since this is only my 3rd posting here. But the amount of myopic, one-dimensional thinking I see here is mind blowing.

Thank you.
-Des

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by BennyPhoenix

I agree 4 beanie,
If it weren't for illegals we wouldn't even have the problems today.
Illegals are the reason that the US govt should bail out calif. It is the US govt's responsibility to stop illegals entering calif and it is their responsibility to pay for them it they refuse to stop them.

Im warming up to this.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

You guys better be careful what you wish for.

Look. I don't like paying for illegals either: Medical, schooling, housing, WIC, refusal to learn English, ad infinitum.

But let's also be honest here. We all know that nearly every single Conservative who stands there grandstanding with his "National Security" and "No Free Handouts" rhetoric will also be the very first one to look the other way when he discovers that Paco, José, and Jésus will mow his lawn for half the price that the blonde kids will.

If all these "mooching illegals" were to simply disappear, think of how quickly some of the things we take for granted like cheap unskilled to semi-skilled labor (construction, dishwashers, janitors, etc.) would collapse like the World Trade Center. You think that fresh fruit is expensive now? Wait till you see what it would cost if "Americans" picked it.

I think the real crux of the problem is that we as a society are a bunch of spoiled and narcissistic brats who want to have things both ways. And when the math dictates that we can't, we stand there jumping up and down having a fit and pointing the finger at everyone but the person who most deserves the blame. And in this case. It's yourself.

You want to solve the "problem" of illegals?

Fine. Don't hire them. Ever. Period. For anything. Don't even give them cash on the corner. Do not even buy those peanuts and oranges they are selling. And don't even THINK about patronizing those taco carts. And start ponying up the extra cash it will require to keep an honest to goodness American employed. If you want "the cheapest", fine. That's your choice. But next time you feel inclined to complain about illegals, put a sock in it.

Sorry to sound so coarse, esp since this is only my 3rd posting here. But the amount of myopic, one-dimensional thinking I see here is mind blowing.

Thank you.
-Des

Oh how wrong you are: most of us, yes, conservatives would not, knowingly hire an illegal to do anything. I can guarantee most of us want them out of the factories and out of the country. Should there be some sort of working permit plan? yes, should we support them or hire illegals unless there is a plan? NOPE!!!!! Where you are getting your information I have no idea.

Nita

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

You guys better be careful what you wish for.

Look. I don't like paying for illegals either: Medical, schooling, housing, WIC, refusal to learn English, ad infinitum.

But let's also be honest here. We all know that nearly every single Conservative who stands there grandstanding with his "National Security" and "No Free Handouts" rhetoric will also be the very first one to look the other way when he discovers that Paco, José, and Jésus will mow his lawn for half the price that the blonde kids will.

If all these "mooching illegals" were to simply disappear, think of how quickly some of the things we take for granted like cheap unskilled to semi-skilled labor (construction, dishwashers, janitors, etc.) would collapse like the World Trade Center. You think that fresh fruit is expensive now? Wait till you see what it would cost if "Americans" picked it.

I think the real crux of the problem is that we as a society are a bunch of spoiled and narcissistic brats who want to have things both ways. And when the math dictates that we can't, we stand there jumping up and down having a fit and pointing the finger at everyone but the person who most deserves the blame. And in this case. It's yourself.

You want to solve the "problem" of illegals?

Fine. Don't hire them. Ever. Period. For anything. Don't even give them cash on the corner. Do not even buy those peanuts and oranges they are selling. And don't even THINK about patronizing those taco carts. And start ponying up the extra cash it will require to keep an honest to goodness American employed. If you want "the cheapest", fine. That's your choice. But next time you feel inclined to complain about illegals, put a sock in it.

Sorry to sound so coarse, esp since this is only my 3rd posting here. But the amount of myopic, one-dimensional thinking I see here is mind blowing.

Thank you.
-Des

Actually, Des, you sound less coarse than you do wrong and judgmental. I've been around over 60 years and am decidedly a fiscal conservative. I don't think I've ever been considered spoiled or narcissistic, nor have I ever had a tantrum because something didn't go my way. I don't know where you came up- with all this but it appears that the myopia is yours.

Remember that while pointing the bony finger of blame at all of us you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

[Des-Lab]

Originally Posted by nmnita

conservatives would not, knowingly hire an illegal to do anything. I can guarantee most of us want them out of the factories and out of the country.

It's that one word that makes all the difference in the world. Most Conservatives, likewise not being stupid, will try to circumvent that "violation" by simply not asking or finding out. Thus on some purely superficial level, placating their "conscience".

As for "wanting them out", I agree with you 100%. Why do you think that so many CEO's, managers, etc. and others who are obsessed with the "bottom line" (who, incidentally are almost unilaterally Conservative in nature BTW) wholesale parted out our nations manufacturing infrastructure? Chinese prison labor is even cheaper than illegal Mexican labor. So I guess in that sense, you are right. After all, it makes good "business sense" to skip the American worker (who costs double that of the Illegal Mexican) and go straight to the Chinese or Indian one (who costs half of what the illegal Mexican one does).

Nowhere in your reply did I hear you say, suggest, or even imply that you would prefer to have American workers take their place.

[4beanie]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

It's that one word that makes all the difference in the world. Most Conservatives, likewise not being stupid, will try to circumvent that "violation" by simply not asking or finding out. Thus on some purely superficial level, placating their "conscience".

As for "wanting them out", I agree with you 100%. Why do you think that so many CEO's, managers, etc. and others who are obsessed with the "bottom line" (who, incidentally are almost unilaterally Conservative in nature BTW) wholesale parted out our nations manufacturing infrastructure? Chinese prison labor is even cheaper than illegal Mexican labor. So I guess in that sense, you are right. After all, it makes good "business sense" to skip the American worker (who costs double that of the Illegal Mexican) and go straight to the Chinese or Indian one (who costs half of what the illegal Mexican one does).

Nowhere in your reply did I hear you say, suggest, or even imply that you would prefer to have American workers take their place.

why does the american worker cost double that of the illegal mexican. Could it be that the american has to pay for his own medical, education, food, etc. while the illegal gets it for free or low cost. oh yes and then there are the unions and union dues.

[Quatermass]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

But let's also be honest here. We all know that nearly every single Conservative who stands there grandstanding with his "National Security" and "No Free Handouts" rhetoric will also be the very first one to look the other way when he discovers that Paco, José, and Jésus will mow his lawn for half the price that the blonde kids will.

"Paco, José, and Jésus"?

The "blonde kids"?

What a complete straw-man argument, and one laced with ugly and unnecessary racial undertones. You, let alone "we", know no such thing. But since we're being "honest" with one another, Des-Lab, why don't you tell us how many lawns you've mowed in your time? 'Cause this conservative mowed lawns from the time he was nine years old -- his own and his neighbors'. Front and back. Every weekend. Unlike you, I never assumed that was work for "Paco, José, and Jésus". (And I'm not even blond.)

Fruit would cost more? Jesus, so what? Are apples going to go to $20 per if picked exclusively by Americans?

CEO's and managers are "almost unilaterally conservative"? "Most conservatives" will not attempt to discover the legal status of their employees? Really? You can document this?

Illegal immigration is not a conservative/liberal issue, in spite of your attempt to make it one. Everyone is sick of what it's doing to California and beyond. My liberal friends are as angry about what's happening as I am, and neither they nor I are engaging in the kind of activities you self-righteously tell everyone else to stop. The only people patronizing the taco shopping-cart that is wheeled into my apartment complex's courtyard every afternoon are other illegals.

"Jumping up and down having a fit and pointing the finger"? What do you call your entire post? "Spoiled and narcissistic brats"? I think I'm listening to one.

Sorry to sound so coarse.

[Steve97415]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

If all these "mooching illegals" were to simply disappear, think of how quickly some of the things we take for granted like cheap unskilled to semi-skilled labor (construction, dishwashers, janitors, etc.) would collapse like the World Trade Center. You think that fresh fruit is expensive now? Wait till you see what it would cost if "Americans" picked it.

1. I think it's clear from looking at labor practices in the Midwest, Northeast and other parts of the country that construction, food service and agriculture can be carried out entirely by resident English-speaking citizens. If Iowans can mow their own lawns, pick their own tomatoes and tile their own bathrooms, why can't Californians?

2. I think it's also clear from looking at the comparative practices in California, the Southwest and elsewhere that the cost savings don't actually filter down to the end consumer. Yes, it's cheaper for developers and agribusiness to hire illegals. They make more money. You don't see the savings.

3. It's also cheaper to buy a BMW from a chop-shop and buy pirated DVDs in Tijuana. But the perceived savings are illusory. It's important to understand how the hiring of illegal workers subverts the principles of fair labor and creates an undermarket of substandard employment riddled with hidden costs and burdens to society at large.
There is a devious half-truth to the notion that illegals do the work that "native citizens no longer want to do." It's work that native citizens -- high school and college students especially -- previously wanted to do, but now that the underground labor market has turned manual labor into a subculture of hardscrabble working conditions with minimal pay, the work has become negatively stigmatized. This is reversible, however.

P.S. It's "Jesús", not "Jésus."

[4beanie]

Originally Posted by 4beanie

why does the american worker cost double that of the illegal mexican. Could it be that the american has to pay for his own medical, education, food, etc. while the illegal gets it for free or low cost. oh yes and then there are the unions and union dues.

In all fairness I also want to state that I believe the welfare system is second in line to the illegal problem. We have created a culture for those who don't want to work.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Des-Lab

It's that one word that makes all the difference in the world. Most Conservatives, likewise not being stupid, will try to circumvent that "violation" by simply not asking or finding out. Thus on some purely superficial level, placating their "conscience".

As for "wanting them out", I agree with you 100%. Why do you think that so many CEO's, managers, etc. and others who are obsessed with the "bottom line" (who, incidentally are almost unilaterally Conservative in nature BTW) wholesale parted out our nations manufacturing infrastructure? Chinese prison labor is even cheaper than illegal Mexican labor. So I guess in that sense, you are right. After all, it makes good "business sense" to skip the American worker (who costs double that of the Illegal Mexican) and go straight to the Chinese or Indian one (who costs half of what the illegal Mexican one does).

Nowhere in your reply did I hear you say, suggest, or even imply that you would prefer to have American workers take their place.

So tell us, Des, when does your unemployment run out? You decidedly sound like someone with a bone to pick with corporate America and I opine it's because you haven't made it very far and believe "the MAN" is against you.