Time Magazine thought California was done in the 70s & again in the 90s (Los Angeles: low crime, how much)

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by majoun

The public might not be out in the streets - but I would hardly refer to the Bay Area Council as being an insignificant group nor would I refer to their proposals as lacking a sense of urgency. They DO have significant influence in the corridors of power, and represent major business interests in the state.

And it is groups like these that are needed to redefine the way the CA gov't is run. It seems like it take something 'major' to occur like the current recession and budget crisis before ppl are willing to rally for significant change like this. It becomes a window of opportunity if enough ppl and/or groups push for major change. I am all for looking at how to change the deadlock in Sacramento. I think the majority of Californians whether, whether conservative, moderate or liberal agree it is time to change things. So a concerted pi-bartisan effort could be launched, of course not without strong opposition from the current powers that be in the state.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

No, no, no. Research and Development, 'Rocket Science' or anything else where US national security or secrets are involved have not and will never be exported like the autos of the rust bowl. These are two entirely different things.

Yes, yes yes. The US sells weapons and advanced machinery to other nations all the time. Of course they are not selling, "US national secrets", but so what? They are still selling rockets and a number of other sophisticated machinery.

U.S. to sell advanced weapons to Saudi Arabia and others | McClatchy

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Last time I checked CalTech, Stanford, UCLA and UCSD along with other think tanks such JPL who conduct research with them weren't going anywhere. Unless of course your chicken little scenarios include the collapse of these institutions as well.

The universities are unlikely to go anywhere. But so what? The rust-belt has a number of top universities too. It has not prevented their decline.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

How about the largest employers of research, development and high tech work for the Gov't? Are they planning on pulling up their tent stakes and leaving anytime in the near future?

I don't know what you are trying to say here. Firstly, most R&D is not government funded. Also, the state does not fund that much research, its the federal government. As a result the research can easily leave the state if the companies decide to relocate.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

And is the SF Bay or Port of LA going to suddenly stop doing international trade simply becuase of some ppl deciding to move out state? Maybe in your mind, but again no. How about the largest argricultural belt of the nation. Did you hear it was moving?

Ugh. As I said before, these things can't support 30+ million people. The farming industry is more secure than the industries in the south and north. But still, its not completely safe. But, if the tech industry leaves the bay area I'm sure all the people will be hitting the farms and ports.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Then there are the countless other large, medium and small companies that have and will continue to do business in CA. Why you ask? The better question is why wouldn't they? With 1 in 8 Americans living here it would be foolish to stop servicing them.

Huh? Unless you run a local business then you can sell service Californians without living in the state. But you don't seem to get why the rust-belt collapsed. Once the key industry leaves all the people that depend on it get smashed too. If the film industry leaves Southern California there will be thousands of non-film businesses that will collapse. Each region in California is just as depended on a key industry as the rust-belt was.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

And oh yeah that little tourist trade thing, I guess Big Sur and Yosemite are falling into the ocean.

What exactly is your point? Tourism can't support millions of people.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

A more 'realistic' scenario might be some companies leave or at least do more work in other states. And then RE prices drop significantly more becuase more ppl like you and others continue to leave...

Again huh? This is no different than the rust-belt. If you have not noticed there are still a large number of people living there. After its key industry left the area found a new equilibrium. The same will occur in California, the question is just what will that look like? I really don't know, but I don't want to wait around and find out. Its rather possible that California repeats the rust-belt experience. This does not mean the state will be a waste land, there are many nice areas in the rust-belt. Rather the state will become an extreme of two worlds with little prospects for the middle-class. But this is already occurring, the bay area already has the worst distribution of wealth. California is already on the same path as the rust-belt.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Oh but wait, what about the hundreds and thousands of other ppl who still plan to move to CA in spite of the chicken little forecasts such as these?

You mean the kids that think they are going to become actors or the immigrants working on farms? The middle-class are avoiding California now.
But you realize that California now has out-migration? That is more people are leaving than coming in. The only reason the state's population is increasing is due to births, but most of these are from low income families.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

So no I still don't think chicken little is on to anything big or new here. Rather these are just simple economic cycles which have come before and will continue to occur long past anyone's lifetime here.

Right they are "just economic cycles". But you seem to not realize just how long these sorts of cycles can last. What is the point of "waiting it out" when you can go somewhere else? None.

What is the point of insulting and trying to degrade the people that think the state is in trouble? This sort of response gives me little hope that California will fix its problems.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by user_id

Right they are "just economic cycles". But you seem to not realize just how long these sorts of cycles can last. What is the point of "waiting it out" when you can go somewhere else? None.

What is the point of insulting and trying to degrade the people that think the state is in trouble? This sort of response gives me little hope that California will fix its problems.

Well, I apologize if I offended you. I guess I am just tired of all the extremely negative statements being made by ppl on there way out which seemed to be based on little more than their personal opinion. Many ppl including myself see a CA with a lot of potential even during the current downturn. It is definately worth 'sticking it out' for all the positives the state still has offer. The pros 'far' outweigh the cons for us.

I am sure you must know someone who plans to stay and actually enjoys their life here. Don't you think they would get tired of hearing these gloom and doom predictions all the time? Is it really that hard to imagine ppl still 'enjoying' life in CA regardless of what the politicians do, etc..? I'm just trying to get you to see things from another perspective even on your way out. You see I have already moved away from CA and then back because I really 'like' living here. And I could live anywhere else in the country I want to in my current job.

Derek

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Well, I apologize if I offended you. I guess I am just tired of all the extremely negative statements being made by ppl on there way out which seemed to be based on little more than their personal opinion. Many ppl including myself see a CA with a lot of potential even during the current downturn. It is definately worth 'sticking it out' for all the positives the state still has offer. The pros 'far' outweigh the cons for us.

I am sure you must know someone who plans to stay and actually enjoys their life here. Don't you think they would get tired of hearing these gloom and doom predictions all the time? Is it really that hard to imagine ppl still 'enjoying' life in CA regardless of what the politicians do, etc..? I'm just trying to get you to see things from another perspective even on your way out. You see I have already moved away from CA and then back because I really 'like' living here. And I could live anywhere else in the country I want to in my current job.

Derek

Obviously and appropriately the state is still "golden" for many. However, for some of us who lived here back in the dark ages of the '40s-'60s it has, regrettably, lost some of its luster.

It's as simple as that and not a need for revilement or defending. It is simply what it is. Times change. Some of us are not happy about it. That's all!

[majoun]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Obviously and appropriately the state is still "golden" for many. However, for some of us who lived here back in the dark ages of the '40s-'60s it has, regrettably, lost some of its luster.

It's as simple as that and not a need for revilement or defending. It is simply what it is. Times change. Some of us are not happy about it. That's all!

I don't think a single person in California would deny that California is in extremely serious trouble, other than small children and perhaps drug addicts who are too high to notice.

It is true the golden age of California will never come back even if the state manages to undertake radical reforms or adapt a new Constitution and manages to return to prosperity. The state's just changed too much. For example, it's widely anticipated that in the 2010 Census California will have lost population for the first time in its history and will probably lose a House seat. The percentage of people born outside CA in the total population is at an all time low - it's dipped below two thirds for the first time and is now in the 50s percentage wise. We've become a mature state, despite having very immature government and institutions. Any future changes to make CA a better place will reflect that CA is now a mature state and as such limits exist (Jerry Brown's "era of limits" speech in the '70s, which enraged many at the time, proved very prescient)

It is a hopeful sign that the consensus that the status quo has failed crosses political and ethnic lines. You have to admit a problem exists before you can fix it.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Those two articles were liberal rants complaining about conservatism.

Well, that certainly is not going to happen now.

So based on the POV of Slime Magazine, California is now paradise on Earth.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Well, I apologize if I offended you. I guess I am just tired of all the extremely negative statements being made by ppl on there way out which seemed to be based on little more than their personal opinion.

You did not offend me, its just odd that people can't address the issue without getting hostile. Also, people (the one's I've seen here) state exactly why they think California is in trouble, you may disagree with the reasoning, but they are not mere opinions.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

I am sure you must know someone who plans to stay and actually enjoys their life here. Don't you think they would get tired of hearing these gloom and doom predictions all the time?

Actually, I don't know many people that want to stay because the state, rather because they have friends and family here. That is usually the barrier to leaving. But some people do react negatively when you say negative things about the state (especially its real estate market), but I tend to think its due to their problems.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Is it really that hard to imagine ppl still 'enjoying' life in CA regardless of what the politicians do, etc..? I'm just trying to get you to see things from another perspective even on your way out.

I see two groups of people that are able to enjoy what California offers, the wealthy that can buy cabins, beach houses, etc and old residents that bought homes when things were affordable. For newer middle-class residents (either natives or migrates), the state is not so great from a financial perspective.

It terms of non-finances, the state is a big hideous piece of concrete. Yes, the state has many rather beautiful areas but most can't live in them while working. So you see concrete and ugly structures for the vast majority of your days. With the exception of some parts of San Fransisco, California cities have zero charm.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by user_id

I see two groups of people that are able to enjoy what California offers, the wealthy that can buy cabins, beach houses, etc and old residents that bought homes when things were affordable. For newer middle-class residents (either natives or migrates), the state is not so great from a financial perspective.

Well, as a native I know 'many' Californians and the majority of them do not fit into either of these two stereotypes. Most are average Joes some of whom own homes, some who do not. When I hear this line of thinking I think what this really means is: Happiness/Success = Home/property ownership. If I can't afford to own a home I or someone else really cannot be happy here. For those whose happiness and feeling of success are based upon this then yes the MidWest or South are better options.

It terms of non-finances, the state is a big hideous piece of concrete. Yes, the state has many rather beautiful areas but most can't live in them while working. So you see concrete and ugly structures for the vast majority of your days. With the exception of some parts of San Fransisco, California cities have zero charm.

Have you ever lived outside the 'concrete jungle' of CA? Believe it or not there are jobs for those who make the effort and take the initiative to seek them out.

Derek

[user_id]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

... Most are average Joes some of whom own homes, some who do not. When I hear this line of thinking I think what this really means is: Happiness/Success = Home/property ownership.

Huh? The cost of living is high in California whether you rent or own. Financially the state is rather hard on newer middle-class residents.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Have you ever lived outside the 'concrete jungle' of CA?

Yes.

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Believe it or not there are jobs for those who make the effort and take the initiative to seek them out.

I never said there were no jobs, I said "most can't live in them while working". That is true, there is a very limited number of jobs. There is even a smaller number of interesting jobs in those areas.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by user_id

Huh? The cost of living is high in California whether you rent or own. Financially the state is rather hard on newer middle-class residents.

Finally something I can agree with you on at least in part. Yes, the cost of living is higher in CA than many other states. This is common knowledge and it includes rents. However salaries are also higher than many states. Now that is not to say that there are not some states with decent pay 'and' lower housing costs. While I lived in CO for example I found pay in my field at least to still be pretty good, while housing costs were much lower. However there were 'other' quality of life factors that were not available which are here beyond cost of living.

I never said there were no jobs, I said "most can't live in them while working". That is true, there is a very limited number of jobs. There is even a smaller number of interesting jobs in those areas.

Well, maybe part of this is insider information then. But as a native and long time resident of CA I have known of many good opportunities 'not' amoungst all the concrete or in the heart of the city. All one really has to do is not live/work in downtown LA, SF, OC or SD. There are a lot of companies who employ ppl on the outskirts of these areas. Here are just a few examples of cities with good jobs outside the concrete jungle: Lake Forest, Long Beach, Torrance, Pasadena, La Jolla, Thousand Oaks, Ventura, Monterey, etc...

Of course young ppl flock to the major cities for other reasons as well like nightlife, proximity to Universities, etc... But if living/working there isn't appealing there are many other options as well. Again it is because CA is so large. Yes, it can be the road less traveled. Although the difference is like night and day - its Huge in fact! Living in Monterey for example is like living in another state compared to places near the larger metro areas of Ca. I know many natives who have moved outside these metros to enjoy the other side of CA. Diveristy of land, culture, educational and proffesional opportunities are some of the many things that make CA such a great place to live in.

It is the sum total of the benefits in living here that have kept property values relatively high for many generations through all the economic booms and busts of the states history - simple supply and demand.

Let me conclude with saying that because of this higher COL CA is not for everyone, especially for retirees on a fixed incomes. In some cases it makes more sense to move out of state to really stretch one's dollar. But for many with family here they are willing to make this sacrifice in paying more to be closer to them. I have witnessed this first hand. This speaks again to quality of life and what is 'most' important beyond simple dollars and cents. Is it the bigger house or closer proximity to loved ones? Everyone makes their own choice on this one.

Derek