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Old 07-15-2009, 12:08 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,880,100 times
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Please read all so we can nip this in the bud .. Your intelligent feedback is appreciated :

Good Day everyone. I am a new user here but not new to the forum.. I keep a particularly close eye on this forum because I live in California and am concerned so much so that I wanted to see what other people think about CA. I read through all 6 pages of this post regarding varied sentiment about CA and I understand everyone's points. I will get to mine shortly (please hang w/ me) and I hope to get intelligent feedback from others. First is first... A little bit about myself so my bias/perspectives can be traced if one exists...

I am a 26 year old male who grew up mostly in FL. I have my Masters in Computer Engineering from one of the top Universities in America. I have travelled the world and have spent some time in several other states (CT, NY, PA). I graduated w/ multiple offers from companies in various diff. states (MA, NY, CA, FL). I ended up choosing FL namely due to firm/factual calculations as to standard of living based on the various salaries. For instance, my salary in FL was ~$8k less than CA was willing to pay me. Further, I had friends/etc this also influenced me.. In all honesty though, when I did the math, I was like : there is no way is F*** I would go to CA w/ that compensation. Had I seen the amazing Cali movies that paint this out to be a wonderful place? Sure... But even though I was then, at the time (21), I was not wet behind the ears.... Nor was I or am I an anti-social hermit who likes working 12-14 hour weeks to be living in a shack apt built in 1980 making decisions about every purchase I make due to taxes/etc. I know how to appreciate culture, nature, diversity, night life, and festivities. I know their place and their relative value to me. So, the choice was made... I took the FL offer.. Had loads of fun... loved the nightlife.. the culture (mainly Caribbean/Spanish).. The diversity in my friends : Brazilian, Haitian, Filipino, Italian, Irish, Chinese, Cuban.... Some year and a 1/2 later I felt better career opportunities lied elsewhere and so I applied to various places and got good offers from top companies in CA... Although I knew better job opportunities lied in CA, I still did not let go of my strict desire to have adequate compensation. I was given a grand slam offer and it made sense.. So I made the move... My salary w/ bonus tops six figures so (no) I am by no means priced out of CA.
What I learned after about 2 years of living here though is I hate the taxes/cost of living. Geography, nothing compares... Diversity too... Love SF although I hate the commute from the valley.

W/ respect to people's comments... I think about this simple thing... If CA were to be uninhabited.. if it didn't have a diverse pool of people populating it.. if it didn't have the crazy taxes and Looney govt. would it hold its value comparative to other states? Sure... It's an amazing and beautiful place... However, it is ran by a total jack*** for a govt.... It's taxes are insane... Cost of living is also insane... And again, I make upwards of six figures and have an enjoyable job...


So going forward... I am looking to get out of here... because when I run the calculations.. It's simply not worth it... As a piece of land, this place is amazing and I can see people's desire to move here.. however, coupled w/ its entrance and inhabitation fee.. It just tends to not be a value for people... I think this is where EVERYONE is divided on this and threads like it.. If there were no taxes and Looney govt I am sure people would be coming here in the boatloads. I think most of the people saying they don't like CA based it on the (Value - to them). which is fair... Not that it is a horrible place... I would even agree w/ people who love this place that this is an amazing place that I would rather not part... But on costs ... It becomes a ? .. is it worth it .. and to the defectors it tends not to be. Should the people who love this place say 'to hell w/ you? leave....'.. No, not exactly because w/ them.. they take their tax revenue.. culture... jobs....ideas.. and spirit... Look at what globalization did to jobs in America.. Is it not plausible that employers in the U.S might not make a similar domestic migration when the time is right? W/ U.S unemployment reaching near 10% and a huge # of intelligent college grads who are jobless do you think that they would be picky about what geographical place they locate? What happens when a place gets a foothold like Raleigh, NC or Spots in texas in way of a tech hub? What happens when the culture and money start to build up those places to diverse hubs like... you know CA? Emotionally you can lob your attacks on defectors but ... To ignore this possibility and say to hell w/ you guys and not get at why people are leaving and try to make changes to prevent it only puts you at a loss... I mean sure, if your b/f is abuser you can stay w/ him because you love him soo much and you can call those who criticize him haters but that is not going to stop maybe your face from getting beatin in.. So ignore the complaints at your own risk. I do wish this state the best though.. it really is a beautiful place and I would really hate to see people leave in large #'s due to an out of control govt. that non of the states citizens seem to care about and make excuses for like (you have to pay to be in this beautiful place)... LOL, sure... but are you paying in to the geographical landscape or paying to sustain an out of control govt... The two are diff.


And again, I happen to make a decent wage so it's not like I am scrapping by. I have projected I can save ~$50-$60k a year after bills/taxes and having a good time. However, coming from FL it irks me when I have to pay 9.5% sales tax. It irks me when I have to pay $250 to register my car every year. It irks me that my electricity bill includes charges to pay some other dude's electricity bill. It irks me that I have to pay 9.5% income tax... and for what? Are the roads better than FL where my registration was $30? No. Is the care for the elderly better here than in FL where there is no income tax and sales tax is 6.5%? No... Do I get what I pay for ? No. And for me, I don't get emotionally attached to a state. My state.. Is my state of mind and frankly I can enjoy any place so long as I have the freedom to enjoy the fruits of my labor. There is just as much diversity, although from diff countries, in FL as there is in CA. In my opinion, a better night life.. And hey, before I left, I was renting a 2,789 sq. foot new house w/ 3 car garage.. big backyard.. granite countertops .. wine rack.. tile throughout mcMansion for less than what I pay for a freaking dorm apt. that was built in probably 1980 w/o A/C... a 2 bedroom 1 bath apt. ... I pay $1895.. to rent a mcmansion in FL it was $1650 a month. So, can I honestly say this is not a beautiful state w/ beautiful people, geography, festivities, and OMFGWTFBBQ? No....
But personally, is it worth it to me w/ my six figure salary? No... The best game plan is to live small.. live young.. don't buy anything major ... Live frugal as hell .. enjoy CA for what it is.. stash away your cash in tax havens, 401ks, annuities, wtvr you can find.. and once you have had your fill .. bounce and settle down. It's funny that I realize this now having been here for 2 years or so. I initially came here thinking the grass is greener on the other side and buying all the hype that is shown in movies about CA... I was wet behind the ears and didn't get what the guy from CA who just moved to FL was telling me as I was leaving my company.... I thought he was just being an old fuddy dud.. Well, I have seen the light as a good # of people who haven't become emotionally tied to this state have... and soon I will be leaving ... taking my fun self, my culture, my $$$ (especially that hiding in tax shelters)... my major purchases.. my intelligence.. my future wife and potential kids .. my home purchase most probably to a state that respects the hard work of its citizens.. that being either Texas or FL... no income tax and low sales tax...

Diversity is not due to Cali. It's due to the people who come here... Many people leaving expensive places like NY/CA end up going to cheaper places to raise a family.. w/ it.. they bring their diversity.. their culture... and amazing selves... It's been an excellent couple of years in CA I can't lie but it just doesn't make any sense anymore and I respect those who, beyond their emotional feelings for CA, do the #'s and make the intelligent choice...
I wish this state the best going into the future .. It just amazes me its comprised of some of the most intelligent people (in the valley).. The most innovative entrepreneurs .. Yet collectively they go to work everyday slaving like animals working 12-14 hours to pay it all out in taxes for no greater services than most other states... To pray their option arm doesn't reset on their 1,000 sq. foot $600k house... All to be in a sinking ship for which there are many other empty floating ones at sea. Yeah the geography isn't as great as CA.. but that's all CA as a piece of land has to offer.. the people in CA are found all over the world and United States... The fun, culture too.. Seek and ye will find... Life is what you make out of it and I personally just feel I want to make it in a place that makes it less hard for me to make choices I need to and want to make. Both from a lifestyle perspective and from a financial perspective. I look forward to constructive feedback.

Last edited by yeahthatguy; 07-15-2009 at 01:12 AM..
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Old 07-15-2009, 12:20 AM
 
Location: In a Lonely Place
230 posts, read 516,189 times
Reputation: 251
You are clearly far too mature to continue existing in California. Excellent post.
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Old 07-15-2009, 12:36 AM
 
2,926 posts, read 5,292,358 times
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:01 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,880,100 times
Reputation: 1217
In reply to (Majin) : No . Read the full thing and give you intelligent feedback. I am not going to cliff note it because it will turn into useless opinionated dribble and far too much of that is coming from the lovers/haters of CA. Lets center on the topic and nip this in the bud. I read 6 pages of a previous thread and I have excellently cliff noted the discussion for both sides. I am sorry if I didn't post some tweet like rant.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:09 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,287,460 times
Reputation: 3318
I also moved from Florida to California, though I did it 27 years ago.

"Culture" is not simply the diversity of people. It's the art musuems, the music, the opera, the plays, the arts in general. You can't get the level of virtuosity you find here in Texas or Florida. That California geography is inspiring too.

I think Florida is a fabulous place for people who love beach sports and things like scuba diving.

I like this sentence of yours: "Nor was I or am I an anti-social hermit who likes working 12-14 hour weeks..." I would LOVE to work 12 to 14 hour WEEKS! (This shows me that you may be brilliant, but you are sloppy.)

The fact is: If California were cheap like Florida and Texas, even MORE PEOPLE would move here and it would be wall to wall people from the coast to Death Valley AND EVERYONE WOULD ABSOLUTELY HATE IT!!! If Florida's government was running this state, there would be housing developments in Yosemite, the Sequoias, Lake Tahoe, and everywhere else. There would be 60-story condos all along the coastline. We'd have 1,000 tollroads to navigate everyday. Golden Gate Park would be "Disney's Golden Gate Park" with a $150 daily entrance fee. Property taxes for anything within 100 miles of the coast would be "out of this world" high (because there would be no state income taxes).

I personally think the LOONY government is in Florida because they have done NOTHING to restrict development. They have turned the once-nice state into a total s***hole by allowing a gazillion developers to do whatever they want. Pristine public beaches in Florida are kind of a joke now, aren't they?

So, GO! Be gone! Have a wonderful time wherever you go to! I'll stay here, where I never have a dull moment and where there is always something interesting to do!
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:47 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,880,100 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I also moved from Florida to California, though I did it 27 years ago.
Congrats. I see that you are enjoying your stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
"Culture" is not simply the diversity of people.
Understood, although I made a lengthy post I didn't have time to fully detail each talking point/define words that should be understood by most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
It's the art musuems, the music, the opera, the plays, the arts in general. You can't get the level of virtuosity you find here in Texas or Florida. That California geography is inspiring too.
I disagree. Ft. Lauderdale has a notable presence of : " musuems, the music, the opera, the plays, the arts in general". I have experienced a good number of them both here and in FL and the major difference is the Eastern (asian) influence found in a lot of CA's 'culture'. Yes, CA's geography is inspiring... I participate in a lot of outdoor activities : hiking, motorcycle (<3 the twisties), and mountain biking... This is what I will miss most about CA .. The geography.. Not anything related to CA's inhabitants or man made constructs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I think Florida is a fabulous place for people who love beach sports and things like scuba diving.
Yes, every state has its natural offerings....

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I like this sentence of yours: "Nor was I or am I an anti-social hermit who likes working 12-14 hour weeks..." I would LOVE to work 12 to 14 hour WEEKS! (This shows me that you may be brilliant, but you are sloppy.)
I am not paid to write these posts... I make my $$$ on my job. I got my degree and my intelligence was recognized on paper.. I don't have much to prove online and thus am sloppy when I type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
The fact is: If California were cheap like Florida and Texas, even MORE PEOPLE would move here and it would be wall to wall people from the coast to Death Valley AND EVERYONE WOULD ABSOLUTELY HATE IT!!!
Instead, California taxes the best and brightest out their a$$ to ensure California is cheap for those who aren't soo bright and don't make that much so it is in fact 'wall to wall'. It is in fact overloaded w/ immigrants and people generally sucking from the teet of other's. For instance, take a look at your PG&E bill. A %'ge of your bill is to pay for some 'less fortunate' person. Further, from what I can tell from post, many have stated how they hate this state from the sheer # of leechers who indeed do migrate here.... On to your other points...


Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
If Florida's government was running this state, there would be housing developments in Yosemite, the Sequoias, Lake Tahoe, and everywhere else.
Given the large swaths of land uninhabited in FL, I find this to be a pretty far out scenario. I have been a resident of the state for a # of the years you haven't been there and it has a large # of parks and nature to enjoy. And when you run out, OMG you live in america.. Get out of your home state and explore the beauty of the other states that compose our body. I dont' think people make daily trips to Tahoe after work. But I digress ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
There would be 60-story condos all along the coastline.
As opposed to the dorm like projects inland that they call housing in California? I can make tit for tat knee jerk comments too .. that wasn't the point of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
We'd have 1,000 tollroads to navigate everyday.
A large # of major highways in FL are free. I can travel from Orlando to South Florida 3-4 hour ride w/o paying a dime in tolls. Yes, there are toll roads.. and guess what? The roads are way nicer in FL. If you ride the road why shouldn't you have to pay for it. Guess what vehicle registration fees are on my civic in FL $38.... In CA: $250 and the roads are horrid.. I almost died on my motorcycle on 85 the other day due to a gaping hole that ran diagonal across the highway.... Guess what CA does w/ its registration fee? It puts it into a general fund and squanders it... Inconvenience? Get an easy pass.. you drive straight through the tolls at traffic speeds and are billed in your account. I did the math, i would pay less in FL even using toll roads on an annual basis (which I don't have to use at all) than paying the ridiculous registration fee in CA. So which is worse? Paying for what you use and getting what you pay for... Charging people intelligently for what they use or charging people and not having quality roads? Dumping road repair money into general funds to subsidize someone's electricity bill?

Again, I can go tit for tat. I however, have #'s and figures backing what I am saying. I am not just out to attack someone's position w/ random comments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Golden Gate Park would be "Disney's Golden Gate Park" with a $150 daily entrance fee.
Because California doesn't have a Disney that charges even more than FL's orlando based Disney... *cracks up.. You have got grammar but I am starting to question your 'brilliance'. Further, on the trend of your commentary, are you for paying for what you use and states intelligently collecting $$ from those who use services or random taxes that make everybody pay for random things that they may/may not use and might or might not agree w/. On the topic of money, FL is not technically bankrupt w/ a deficit of $26 billion and handing out IOUS....

Again, I can go tit for tat.. but wasn't the point of this thread. At no point did I bash CA in my initial post. I stated facts, my experience, opinion, and supporting information... Why are you trying to turn this into a FL. vs. CA thing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Property taxes for anything within 100 miles of the coast would be "out of this world" high (because there would be no state income taxes).
You have to pay to play. Property value isn't in the milk way in FL like it is in CA.. So on the issue of property tax, it tends to compare nicely. Also, FL is not in a $26 billion deficit due to its lack of logical tax collection. (tit for tat.. this wasn't the point of the thread)



Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I personally think the LOONY government is in Florida because they have done NOTHING to restrict development. They have turned the once-nice state into a total s***hole by allowing a gazillion developers to do whatever they want.
I can talk for days on this. Your point is partly valid... It is not a 's****hole' like you describe however. For instance, a large amount of the development is done in the everglades for which there are 100's of square miles of.. It would otherwise be unusable due to the hazards of navigating it (alligators/snakes/etc).... What you speak of in way of overdevelopment occurs in a small portion of FL. There are large #'s of free beaches that drawing millions of tourists a year.. And enough swamp to get real fancy in on an airboat ride.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Pristine public beaches in Florida are kind of a joke now, aren't they?
Not at all.. Come and visit sometime..I should have my mcmansion bought nearby one pretty soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
So, GO! Be gone! Have a wonderful time wherever you go to! I'll stay here, where I never have a dull moment and where there is always something interesting to do!
I love you too ... I fully understand how intelligent threads turn into pure garbage now....
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Not tied down... maybe later! *rawr*
2,689 posts, read 6,198,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post

I fully understand how intelligent threads turn into pure garbage now....


How is that? By someone posting their opinion and asking for others to do so in return only to have them ripped apart, sentence by sentence and then be told by the OP how idiotic they are for not agreeing with him/ her?


Oh... wait... that's what you just did. Der!
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:25 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,880,100 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by canibeyou View Post
How is that? By someone posting their opinion and asking for others to do so in return only to have them ripped apart, sentence by sentence and then be told by the OP how idiotic they are for not agreeing with him/ her?


Oh... wait... that's what you just did. Der!
I asked for intelligent feedback.. Not rant like responses typical of threads here. I analyzed the response sentence by sentence because, as you can tell, the response was a baseless rant that went on to compare CA to FL and in may ways misstated the facts. Where did I state the person's response was idiotic? May I please ask you to back up your statement? I made a smart remark on grammar/brilliance due to the responding person's smart remark.

Again, it seems people like to rant here and diverge more than anything. Please dont turn this thread into that. If you have intelligent feedback to post then post it. And if you are going to accuse someone of something, feel free to do as I did and source/quote them.

What exactly do you call : UB50's post which is full of non-factual inaccurate cheap shots at FL vs. CA? How else do I respond to such a post w/o addressing the fallacies line by line and when necessary putting cheap shots in their respective place and in perspective? is it better to ignore it and have someone believe UB50's relative comparisons are actually valid? But by all means, scan over every line in someone's post... Don't add anything to the discussion and make some random unfounded attack.

*Back on topic
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Tijuana Exurbs
3,987 posts, read 10,410,530 times
Reputation: 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post


... As a piece of land, this place is amazing and I can see people's desire to move here.. however, coupled w/ its entrance and inhabitation fee.. It just tends to not be a value for people... I think this is where EVERYONE is divided on this and threads like it.. If there were no taxes and Looney govt I am sure people would be coming here in the boatloads.
And that my dear sir, is the Rub.

There was a time when California had no taxes and no Looney state government, and people DID come here by the boatloads: the 49ers, the movie industry tycoons and starlet wannabees, the Okie farmworkers, the WWII and Cold War defense workers, the mass suburbanite auto-utopians, the Summer of Love hippies. They all came here by the boatloads, the trainloads, the plane loads, and the Model T and the VW bus loads. Millions and Millions of them. And what did they bring with them? Taxes and a Looney state government. And what is keeping even more millions and million of people from coming here? Taxes and a Looney State government.

And my point? I don't really have one. We have met the Enemy and They is Us.
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Old 07-15-2009, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 82,786,473 times
Reputation: 17500
The version for those who pay for data transfer by the kilobyte:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
I graduated w/ multiple offers from companies in various diff. states (MA, NY, CA, FL) STOP

I ended up choosing FL namely due to firm/factual calculations as to standard of living based on the various salaries STOP

Some year and a 1/2 later I felt better career opportunities lied elsewhere and so I applied to various places and got good offers from top companies in CA STOP
was given a grand slam offer STOP
So I made the move STOP
My salary w/ bonus tops six figures so (no) I am by no means priced out of CA STOP
What I learned after about 2 years of living here though is I hate the taxes/cost of living STOP Geography, nothing compares STOP
Diversity too STOP
Love SF although I hate the commute from the valley STOP


I am looking to get out of here STOP

But personally, is it worth it to me w/ my six figure salary? No STOP
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