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Old 09-03-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Kingwood, Texas
500 posts, read 1,932,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia View Post
No, we welcome them with open checkbooks and encourage them to turn our state into a perfect replica of the countries they left.
apparently I've already given you reputation at some point, so I can't, but that was pretty funny.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,547 posts, read 17,481,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Too many Californians other than those with Midwestern roots seem to forget about the reality of the Midwest. Being the child of Midwestern transplants (OK, mom entered elementary school in CA but she wasn't born in CA) I could probably hang in the Midwest OK as I know the mentality (well, except for the weather), but those who aren't familiar with it couldn't.
There is a difference between those of us who remember a much different California and aren't fond of the way its become. I am a third generation native, and grew up at various points in socal, but about 20 years ago realized that I did not recognize the state I knew. It took that long to move but I finally was able to.

The Oklahoma culture is very different and the weather is a lot less extreme than I "heard" but still different. I don't think I'll ever "fit in" here but this is a much more comfortable place for me than socal has become. While my family had midwestern and southern roots it was way long ago so it wasn't that. I don't see it as bashing the state when saying it wasn't home anymore. I see it as recognizing that it has changed so much that it isn't what it was.

Personally I like the way it is here, and do not include politics in that since I consider politics as private thing and don't care what the local one is. But people are friendly and far more open than they were in Riverside before I left. I don't feel like people are in a rush to get somewhere and aside from the general discontent you find everywhere I don't feel the anger that was so prevalent in Riverside either. Thing is this is the way it was when I grew up in California. Its a beautiful state, no arguments, but that is balanced by the smog and congestion and stress. Oklahoma is a beautiful state too, if not as spectacular. I like the trees and the green and the open space when you drive out of town. You can find that in socal but you have to drive very very far to get there.

If you came to California in the last thirty years or were raised there in that time your perception of the state is going to be very different than those of us who predate you. If you read the comments from those leaving a great many are in the boomer generation who are natives or came young and who don't feel comfortable in the rush and crowds anymore. We are *looking for* places which are different.

I'm sure many who came to California and liked what they found will not like the midwest or this area. But they aren't moving because they don't like the culture that has come to develope in socal. You have to look at why people go before you make any judgements about their leaving.

There are places in California where that old feel exists, mostly in the north, but the cost of living, the weight of rules and regulations, the taxes and such are still there. Thats why people don't go in search of the old California in California. Some don't like the rules that seem to be everywhere. Some can't afford the costs. Some think its good to just plain make a clean break from the place.

I know I will always be a Californian. I want to put up a fence around my property and create private space. But I can relax in a place where my neighbors are friendly and calm and while some of the locals take it to the extreme people aren't in a hurry. I am me, if people like it fine, if not fine but I feel like I'm much more me here than there.

So before one generalizes about people being able to adjust, remember that people leave and move for many reasons and cashing out is only one of them. And if I say I wish California had not become such a stranger I am not bashing it, just expressing my view. Everyone is free to disagree but I'm not starting a fight.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,447 posts, read 23,886,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
There is a difference between those of us who remember a much different California and aren't fond of the way its become. I am a third generation native
The Oklahoma culture is very different and the weather is a lot less extreme than I "heard" but still different. I don't think I'll ever "fit in" here but this is a much more comfortable place for me than socal has become. While my family had midwestern and southern roots it was way long ago so it wasn't that. [/quote]

I really don't think of Oklahoma as the Midwest - it's too far away from the Great Lakes and its culture is far more southern influenced and Bible Belt.

The Midwest I know is not exactly a "friendly" place unless you know the mentality. If you do, then it's fine (except for the weather), but if you don't, your California ways will get you into a great deal of crap. And I don't mean politics. Most of those people ragging on "California f***ots" are most likely Democrats, albeit of a different type than you'll find in CA.

Quote:
If you came to California in the last thirty years or were raised there in that time your perception of the state is going to be very different than those of us who predate you. If you read the comments from those leaving a great many are in the boomer generation who are natives or came young and who don't feel comfortable in the rush and crowds anymore. We are *looking for* places which are different.
I'm in the early part of Gen X, not that much younger than Obama is, and I've seen the changes. I can understand how people would feel nostalgic for the old California. However, the midwest is nothing like the old California, and my experiences with it have not been bad but there is certainly a type of mentality which I can't see Californians with no ties to that area embracing. Could I fit in? Yes, due to being used to it. However, I don't think too many Californians who aren't tied to that culture could. There is a genuine hostility out there to the "California lifestyle" (the OLD "California lifestyle" as well as the "new California lifestyle).

Quote:
I'm sure many who came to California and liked what they found will not like the midwest or this area. But they aren't moving because they don't like the culture that has come to develope in socal. You have to look at why people go before you make any judgements about their leaving.
Besides areas where the old CA still exists, I can understand why people would go to Washington and Oregon - there's a cultural compatibility (and OR is more like the old California) I could understand Colorado as well ; British Columbia would also be very culturally compatible. The Midwest OTOH is a whole different place. People forget the diversity that exists between US regions. And OK would be even more of a cultural gap. You might as well just leave the country. If you're going to go that far away might as well go to VT, NH, or ME - beautiful scenery, more of a "real America" feel, and a more tolerant, live and let live attitude.

Quote:
There are places in California where that old feel exists, mostly in the north, but the cost of living, the weight of rules and regulations, the taxes and such are still there. Thats why people don't go in search of the old California in California.
There are a few who do like my aunt and uncle.

Last edited by majoun; 09-03-2009 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,547 posts, read 17,481,457 times
Reputation: 16765
Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
The Oklahoma culture is very different and the weather is a lot less extreme than I "heard" but still different. I don't think I'll ever "fit in" here but this is a much more comfortable place for me than socal has become. While my family had midwestern and southern roots it was way long ago so it wasn't that.
I really don't think of Oklahoma as the Midwest - it's too far away from the Great Lakes and its culture is far more southern influenced and Bible Belt.

The Midwest I know is not exactly a "friendly" place unless you know the mentality. If you do, then it's fine (except for the weather), but if you don't, your California ways will get you into a great deal of crap. And I don't mean politics. Most of those people ragging on "California f***ots" are most likely Democrats, albeit of a different type than you'll find in CA.



I'm in the early part of Gen X, not that much younger than Obama is, and I've seen the changes. I can understand how people would feel nostalgic for the old California. However, the midwest is nothing like the old California, and my experiences with it have not been bad but there is certainly a type of mentality which I can't see Californians with no ties to that area embracing. Could I fit in? Yes, due to being used to it. However, I don't think too many Californians who aren't tied to that culture could. There is a genuine hostility out there to the "California lifestyle" (the OLD "California lifestyle" as well as the "new California lifestyle).



Besides areas where the old CA still exists, I can understand why people would go to Washington and Oregon - there's a cultural compatibility (and OR is more like the old California) I could understand Colorado as well ; British Columbia would also be very culturally compatible. The Midwest OTOH is a whole different place. People forget the diversity that exists between US regions. And OK would be even more of a cultural gap. You might as well just leave the country. If you're going to go that far away might as well go to VT, NH, or ME - beautiful scenery, more of a "real America" feel, and a more tolerant, live and let live attitude.



There are a few who do like my aunt and uncle.[/quote]

About a dozen or so years ago we were considering moving to Oregon. I did some research and it was most interesting. The populace seemed almost violently anti-california. There were really signs saying Welcome to Oregon, now go home. But even more interesting is that over fifty percent of that population was from California over the previous ten years. I think people will find what they want and be quite proactive, perhaps more than the natives, to protect it.

I think what people do when they leave a state, california or other, is look for something they want. I won't say that Oklahoma is the old California, but its a lot more like it than the new California. Its true its not midwestern. What exactly it is is a continuing conversation on the Oklahoma forum but its a little west and south and native and its own place. What it is too is a quieter and slower place and that is what I needed. The summer isn't much worse at it worse than socal ( especially Riverside) and the spring and fall are great and its cold but not terrible in the winter. This worked for me. I visited Kansas and did very much like the people, but the weather made me think twice several times over.

Unfortunately for those who go to the places in California which are still relatively like it was, the influx continues and it changes. Unless its a little mountain town, we had planned and tried to move to one with a thousand people in the mountains around lassen, you won't keep that feel.

Really we can't say what others do or don't or can or can't. Each of us has our own individual needs. I can say for me, as an individual, that leaving the California culture and finding a completely new place has been wonderful. For you or someone else who knows? But so often its taken as an attack on home. California isn't a paradise and neither is here, but we pick where we like being.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,447 posts, read 23,886,020 times
Reputation: 7264
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post

About a dozen or so years ago we were considering moving to Oregon. I did some research and it was most interesting. The populace seemed almost violently anti-california. There were really signs saying Welcome to Oregon, now go home.
That's true, and you'll find that type of anti-Californianism anywhere that large numbers of Californians have moved to. It's existed in Oregon and Washington for years, probably exists in Arizona, and is starting to rapidly grow in Austin. If large numbers of Californians move to Oklahoma it will pop up there too.

Midwestern anti-Californianism is very different, as the Midwest at least as recently as last year was the only US region still sending more people to California than it was recieving from California. There's no big influx of Californians to the midwest. To midwesterners, California represents a lifestyle and certain values that are not looked upon very well. The midwest has a great deal of anger and rage, at least as much as CA, and a long standing sense of hopelessness.

OTOH Upper New England has no bad feelings towards Californians at all. I have friends who've moved to Vermont for the same reasons you moved to Oklahoma and they said they feel perfectly welcomed, as people there do have a live and let live attitude without the insane religious culture associated with Oklahoma.


Quote:
I think what people do when they leave a state, california or other, is look for something they want. I won't say that Oklahoma is the old California, but its a lot more like it than the new California.
"The new California" in some ways is more like the midwest than the old California was. It has developed its own brand of intolerance.

Quote:
Its true its not midwestern. What exactly it is is a continuing conversation on the Oklahoma forum but its a little west and south and native and its own place.
An extension of North Texas?

Quote:
What it is too is a quieter and slower place and that is what I needed. The summer isn't much worse at it worse than socal ( especially Riverside) and the spring and fall are great and its cold but not terrible in the winter. This worked for me. I visited Kansas and did very much like the people, but the weather made me think twice several times over.
Would the weather preclude you from going to Upper New England?

Quote:
Unfortunately for those who go to the places in California which are still relatively like it was, the influx continues and it changes. Unless its a little mountain town, we had planned and tried to move to one with a thousand people in the mountains around lassen, you won't keep that feel.
My aunt and uncle are perfectly happy in Sonoma County and they regard that as still authentically Californian. (My aunt is my mother's sister and thus came to SoCal as a small child, while her husband is a Bay Area native who was born and raised in the old, pre-decline Oakland). I'd agree with them that the real CA begins not at the San Diego/Baja Norte border but the Sonoma/Marin border. IMO that part of the state is very conscious of its Californian identity and values it, while SoCal couldn't care less and has effectively thrown out its own culture. To some extent this has also happened in the Bay Area, the only reason why it hasn't to the same extent is that the Bay Area recognizes it can make money from the remnants of its old culture.

If even Santa Rosa or Petaluma aren't authentically Californian for you, thought about Humboldt or Mendocino counties?

Quote:
Really we can't say what others do or don't or can or can't. Each of us has our own individual needs. I can say for me, as an individual, that leaving the California culture and finding a completely new place has been wonderful. For you or someone else who knows? But so often its taken as an attack on home. California isn't a paradise and neither is here, but we pick where we like being.
The California my mother came to as a kid must've seemed like paradise, but even CA in its golden years had flaws. The state's certainly extremely troubled right now, but I haven't given up on the state. (Admittedly I can understand you being so negative because you're from the IE, the region of the state with the fewest positive aspects). I do think about leaving, and even think about where I would go if I left, but going to OK would have practically zero appeal to me. I'd need somewhere with a more tolerant attitude, somewhere where there was less crazy evangelical religion (not to mention I wouldn't mind leaving behind CA spiritualism either). Obviously the Midwest has plenty wrong with it but through my dad and my mom's relatives I KNOW the mentality and could adapt to it. OK may not be technically part of the South but it has the Southern mentality, and that's something you really need to have been exposed to at an early age to really feel comfortable with it when it comes to living there (visiting is a whole different story)
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:14 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,386,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
The California my mother came to as a kid must've seemed like paradise, but even CA in its golden years had flaws. The state's certainly extremely troubled right now, but I haven't given up on the state. (Admittedly I can understand you being so negative because you're from the IE, the region of the state with the fewest positive aspects). I do think about leaving, and even think about where I would go if I left, but going to OK would have practically zero appeal to me. I'd need somewhere with a more tolerant attitude, somewhere where there was less crazy evangelical religion (not to mention I wouldn't mind leaving behind CA spiritualism either). Obviously the Midwest has plenty wrong with it but through my dad and my mom's relatives I KNOW the mentality and could adapt to it. OK may not be technically part of the South but it has the Southern mentality, and that's something you really need to have been exposed to at an early age to really feel comfortable with it when it comes to living there (visiting is a whole different story)
It was a paradise when I was born here in 1946 and returned here in 1951 after having been in mainland China, AL and NC (military family). And, yes, there were flaws! There was a lot of racial bias and discrimination back in the 50s and early 60s and it was getting mighty crowded. What we used to refer to as haze as in, "It's kinda hazy this morning." was, in fact, smog. I think the division between the haves and the have nots was quite discernable but then again, when and where has it ever not been?

For me, my beautiful, magical home state began what I perceive to be its decline during Vietnam ("my" war), hastened by the "Summer of Love" and never returned to "normal." It didn't have a chance. Just as all that madness was winding down our porous borders began ushering in hordes of immigrants, both legal and illegal. There were too many for true assimilation, the madnesses of political correctness affirmative action were alive and well and the drug culture, which was fully launched in the early 60s, refused to do the decent thing and die.

Compartmentalization of races and cultures, combined with drugs and other crimes, led to the rapid growth of street gangs, the still extant era of greed and a coarsening of our culture which has resulted in a loss of civility and destructively partisan politics again, as perceived by me. I guess it's safe to say that my vision of America, a country I have always loved and one I fought for, is elsewhere within its borders.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:03 AM
 
2,653 posts, read 4,714,438 times
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Originally Posted by CalFireWife View Post
Interesting that you assume Cal Fire firefighters are paid well...do you know that per hour, Firefighters are paid less than those flipping burgers at In & Out?!?! They leave their families for 3 days straight (right now my husband's been gone for over a week due to the fires), put their life on the line to save others and their belongings - keep us safe - and he (as an Engineer/Paramedic) is bringing home under $4000 a month. If he worked for LA or another department, he'd be making almost double that?! Why is that? How does that make any sense? Our State employees make that much less. YES - they earn every penny but should be paid accordingly - for their bravery, knowledge, education and experience - not paid less per hour than a fry cook at a fast food joint - Arnold - what are you doing about this!!! Are you going to pay them back for what you furlowed them?
Try comparing paychecks and pensions with the men and women on the frontlines in Iraq and Afghanistan then get back to me.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:15 AM
 
2,653 posts, read 4,714,438 times
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Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Good point there

In the OP's defense, I would say that California, while not overly friendly, is pretty accepting of people coming here from other places. Californians certainly don't shun newcomers.
Agreed. Californians in General are open to newcomers because so many californians are newcomers themselves. CA probably has one of the lowest percentages of native born state residents in the country. And the western states in general have fewer native born residents then other parts of the US and, in general, are more open to newcomers as a result of it. However, Human nature being what it is, as these areas become more established and more and more people become 2nd and 3rd generation in these areas, this will change.

Most places that are more established, whether it is in the Midwest, South, Northeast, whatever, tend to be less welcoming of newcomers. Many of the larger cities in these regions also have parts of town where relocaters - particularly serial corporate relocaters - tend to congragate. These places offer the best chance for newcomers to find welcoming neighbors.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:51 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,386,990 times
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Originally Posted by OC Investor2 View Post
Try comparing paychecks and pensions with the men and women on the frontlines in Iraq and Afghanistan then get back to me.
What the military receives with all the pay, allowances and benefits is really quite generous anymore and fire and police lay their lives on the line daily as well.

If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the paychecks and pensions of today's soldiers with those we received in the 60s when I enlisted. Today's E-1 in basic starts at $1,294.50 and by the time he might be deployed is earning $1,399.50. Back in my day I started out at $87.90 whether I needed it or not and then jumped to $100.00.

By the way, that $87.90 is the equivalent of $583.03 today and the $100.00 would be $633.09 in today's dollars -- a far cry from roughly $1,300-1,400 earned by soldiers now at that rank.

Did I mention that over tens of thousands of us lost our lives beginning at those peanuts?

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 09-04-2009 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:32 AM
 
664 posts, read 1,751,324 times
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
What the military receives with all the pay, allowances and benefits is really quite generous anymore and fire and police lay their lives on the line daily as well.

If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the paychecks and pensions of today's soldiers with those we received in the 60s when I enlisted. Today's E-1 in basic starts at $1,294.50 and by the time he might be deployed is earning $1,399.50. Back in my day I started out at $87.90 whether I needed it or not and then jumped to $100.00.

By the way, that $87.90 is the equivalent of $583.03 today and the $100.00 would be $633.09 in today's dollars -- a far cry from roughly $1,300-1,499 earned by soldiers now at that rank.

Did I mention that over tens of thousands of us lost our lives beginning at those peanuts?

While I agree with you that back in the day service members were not paid well, I think they still are not paid well. The only thing that makes staying in 20+ is being able to draw your pension the month you retire (so if you joined at 18 and retired at 38, you could collect) that is a HUGE benefit. Just my 2 cents!
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