Has Calif Lost its Charm? Seeking comments (crime rates, unemployed)

[Jay100]

Originally Posted by JetJockey

There are also many Americans that don't share your 'values', your 'religion' etc and we still get along fine. I understand the Illegal thing... I want them out too, which may be surprising coming from a liberal such as myself.

Overpopulation is always a problem, not just here but anywhere. I could give you quite a few places near my area to move (Harmony: Population 18, California Valley: Population less than 500, Pozo, Santa Margarita, Cholame etc are all in my county on the coast) but then you would probably complain about the 'lack of services' like shopping, restaraunts, and lack of jobs, of course. Unfortunatley, population makes jobs so it's hard living in the boondocks, I did it for 10 years I know.

You're looking in the wrong places, especially if you consider Magic Mountain a good representation of Californians.

I had been under the impression that from its birth, the USA = capitalism, rule of law, democracy, and Protestantism or Christianity. Many people SAY they're "American" but don't subscribe to its core values.

Given that San Luis Obispo is 79% white, I don't think it's a good representation of present day California. I think you are sheltered. You SAY you want overcrowding and diversity...but not in your neighborhood. You're not walking the walk. You're not surrounding yourself entirely with diversity or 3rd world immigrants, foreigners, thugs, gang bangers, taggers, ufc wannabees, criminals, and lowlifes.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Originally Posted by sav858

You probably haven't seen some of his other posts. But I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what he said here except for a few things. I don't think it was just the recession that created this imbalance but also the whole illegal immigrants thing too.

It's just been my experience with people and have seen it somewhat on here too. Very generally speaking, some Northern Californians tend to be judgmental about SoCal, make assumptions about it and will talk about the differences more so. Many Southern Californians either like NorCal or are just indifferent and don't care from my experiance.

I probably came off a little testy earlier but some people on here seem to make SoCal out to be such a bad place to live. That just hasn't been my experience here or with many other people I've met. Although I will agree that SoCal has many bad parts that I would never want to live in but it has lots of nice areas too, mainly near the coast or in the mountains.

It's because the suburban and exurban Bay Area is utterly indistinguishable from greater LA. People in the urban centers here subconsciously mix their disdain for the burbs here with disdain for greater LA. Herb Caen used to refer to San Jose as Los Angeles Del Norte. In fact the whole Bay Area is Los Angeles Del Norte, the only difference is the Bay Area urban core areas are older (except the oldest things such as adobes, obviously the ages of those are similar) and there is a Bay in the middle of the conurbation. Bay Area folks are denialists about both the extent of the conurbation and its overall, broad brush, similarities with greater LA. Heck, they are in denial about silly things like the fact that SF, SJ, Oakland, not to mention the many suburban and exurban communities are all part of this massive, 7M person metro. This particularly irks those in SF, as they would love to imagine being the Paris of the West, and having the center city dominate the burbs. But in fact, what we have here is another smaller LA albeit one where the namesake city never annexed nearby areas (in fact did the opposite and stupidly seceded from San Mateo County in 1868) and therefore doomed the area to being a true quilt of municipalities with no clear center namesake. Perhaps we're an even more extreme version of what one sees in LA. All of this creates angst and discomfort. My mere words here will probably incite an intellectual riot - LOL!

(I will cover this in much greater depth in the essay I plan to publish later this year)

[Rhenzanite]

Originally Posted by Jay100

I had been under the impression that from its birth, the USA = capitalism, rule of law, democracy, and Protestantism or Christianity. Many people SAY they're "American" but don't subscribe to its core values.

Given that San Luis Obispo is 79% white, I don't think it's a good representation of present day California. I think you are sheltered. You SAY you want overcrowding and diversity...but not in your neighborhood. You're not walking the walk. You're not surrounding yourself entirely with diversity or 3rd world immigrants, foreigners, thugs, gang bangers, taggers, ufc wannabees, criminals, and lowlifes.

So because someone isn't a Christian they are unamerican?

Sheltered? Not so much. I grew up in Germany, lived in France, Spain, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, the eastern United States and now I'm in California. I DON'T want overcrowding, but I don't mind diversity... I think you comprehended my post entirely wrong. To say ALL of California is like SoCal is incorrect and ridiculously wrong, which is the point I was trying to get across. And yes, I spent much of my time in Palmdale as a young teenager before our neighbors were killed in a drive by shooting because some dumbass gang members thought someone else lived there.

You wanna talk UFC wannabes? Chuck Lidell lives in my town. He grew up here. He has hit on every single one of my friends at least once. He also has a very large group of UFC wannabes that live in the area. There are a ridiculous number of giant lifted trucks with TAPOUT stickers stuck all over them. We also have our share of foreigners... I am one, and so is my family. Legally, of course. My county is also heavily agricultural, I think many people forget that. We have a LOT of immigrants here...I can guarantee you they will disappear come census time. Paso Robles? They have the wine industry... same immigrant problem.


I think diversity is great, but I absolutely WILL NOT stand for crime, thugs, lowlifes etc regardless of race or religion. One does not necessarily come with the other.

[guyincognito]

I am not a California resident, but I've been reading this forum for a while as I'm considering a move to California. This is not another "I'll find work when I get there, can I get by on $700 a month" kind of posts.

I've never lived in California, but I do travel there frequently for business. My company has a number of locations in California, and I've been considering applying for an internal transfer to one of the California-based positions. I love the climate and natural-beauty of the state, and there is some sort of deep-rooted affinity for what California represents in my mind.

My problem is I can't reconcile my feelings towards California with what I actually experience when I travel there. As a current resident of the Northern VA / Washington, D.C. area I'm not shocked by the cost of living or traffic. My problem is what I see when I travel to California is a state that peaked in the 70s.

- While I can appreciate the extensiveness of the highway system, the infrastructure is getting very dilapidated. Some of the highway signs have such a high level of grime on them that they can't be read.

- I drive through areas that the locals tell me are upper-middle-class, and I see a ghetto. Houses that may have looked great when they were built 30 years ago and now are fairly run down (granted, I rarely make it to the far out burbs to see what that's like). This also seems to extend to hotels - national chain business hotel brands I usually stay at like Courtyard that are decent in other parts of the country are for some reason far worse in their California incarnations. I don't know why that is. They always seem to be dirtier and/or have long term residents living in them.

- I hear lots of bitching about sub-par school systems from the people I work with out there.

- A few people have set up second homes in Nevada to claim residency and avoid the exorbitant taxes.

- A generally car-centric culture with vast sprawling suburbs and poor urban planning. Public transportation is poor with little to no hope of living somewhere within walking distance of anything interesting.

Granted, these are my perceptions based just on business travel to the Bay Area and LA. And despite all this, there is something about California that I really do love. I can't justify a move there on objective measures, it's all "mental". But yet I still consider the possibility...

[Charles]

Originally Posted by guyincognito

I see when I travel to California is a state that peaked in the 70s.

- the infrastructure is getting very dilapidated. Some of the highway signs have such a high level of grime on them that they can't be read.

- I drive through areas that the locals tell me are upper-middle-class, and I see a ghetto. Houses that may have looked great when they were built 30 years ago and now are fairly run down (granted, I rarely make it to the far out burbs to see what that's like). This also seems to extend to hotels - national chain business hotel brands I usually stay at like Courtyard that are decent in other parts of the country are for some reason far worse in their California incarnations. I don't know why that is. They always seem to be dirtier and/or have long term residents living in them.

- I hear lots of bitching about sub-par school systems from the people I work with out there.

- A few people have set up second homes in Nevada to claim residency and avoid the exorbitant taxes.


Granted, these are my perceptions based just on business travel to the Bay Area and LA.

This is only part of the story.

Tell us what cities you could be transferred to.
Also, what living situation do you envision over the next ten years (single, married, kids, etc.)?

With those two pieces of information, we can comment on places you might like.

[FreeSpirited1]

I can only tell you my experience, which may or may not jibe with any one else, but here it is (please direct msg me if you like):

I moved from Milwaukee, WI to Los Angeles, CA when I was 20 - this would be 1991. I had no debt, no car, and no real job prospects, as I was working my 4th year as a cashier at a supermarket, following an incomplete attempt at college due to funding (grades were great - communication was my major - I wanted to be a journalist, actually).

My two musician brothers had moved there, and were living in the heart of Hollywood with two other musicians in a 2 bedroom apartment...so off I went, with about $400.00 total to my name. Not much to lose, and honestly, I did not have a "back up" plan. Never even gave it a thought.

Within a week, I found work at a bead store, thanks to the guy I met on the Greyhound who was friendly and harmless, so he drove me around. To supplement that job, which was part-time, I found another job doing office work for a small CPA office. Within a year, though, problems with both employers prompted me to look for one full-time job (one was going broke, the other was moving too far for me to get to w/out a car). I applied with a staffing agency via a newspaper ad, and found a terrific job, that lasted for 7 years in the commercial insurance industry.

This was quite a dramatic change for me, but I really enjoyed the diversity of L.A. and the overall impression I got of people is that they were a little more laid back/down to earth and much more open-minded than anyone I had known growing up (generally speaking). I found all of this to be comforting and it did, in many respects, feel much more like "home" to me than where I grew up - I finally fit in somewhere, and things just seemed to gel pretty well overall.

I made a ton of friends, dated, went out a lot, took on extra jobs at times - once as a cigarette girl for Miss Kitty's Concessions, later as a cocktail waitress for the Rainbow Bar & Grill - experienced the highs and lows that an adventurous young girl would in a city that really can lift you to great heights, but also bring you crashing down if you are not careful.

All through the 90's, there were problems - Rodney King riots, Northridge Earthquake, fires (of course...), mudslides, OJ Simpson - on and on, but everyone and everything just seemed to keep going. The only glitch was a one-time salary freeze at some point in the 90's, that was all I recall for economic turmoil.

Yes, the traffic was bad, smog was bad, but there were no real discussions about illegal immigration, though, at least as I can recall; it just wasn't on anyone's radar that I talked to who were my age or older.

I returned to Milwaukee in 1999 after kindling a relationship with someone from my past. I stayed here until 2006, when the small law firm I worked for abruptly closed. For 4 months, I could not even get an interview, much less a job. I contacted friends in L.A. and within 2 weeks, I had an offer after flying in for an in-person interview. I am elated - I have a job! So, off I go...

Here is where I have issues with the changes since I last lived in L.A., because I've been in Milwaukee now for 7 years (things here don't change all that much, nor all that rapidly). I am thoroughly enamored with my job though, I love it, love the people, pay is fine and I am just happy as a clam. But...the drive! The drive is freakin' killing me!

I did not think to make any correction for population density when I chose to live in Studio City and work downtown - my fault. But, even so, 12 miles should not take an hour. Or an hour and a half. But it does on the 101 Freeway. So, the drive starts getting old really fast. By Thursday, I'm so tired, I'm asleep by 9 p.m.

This is common with co-workers, too, they are all exhausted and I can see it in their faces, so I know it's wearing on them, too. I start to think...do I want to spend this much time in a car every day? Questions about my life make me doubt why I'm living like this...then I remember, oh yeah, couldn't get a job in Milwaukee. So I go on best I can.

I also did not take into consideration that rent doubled when I accepted the job with the salary I thought was so terrific. When I moved from L.A. in 1999. I was paying $545 for a one bedroom in Valley Village. Now, in 2006, a mere 7-8 blocks away in Studio City, I am paying $1,060 for a studio. My credit is not the most sparkling, so I had to take what I could get and also rather quickly, because I started work immediately and was staying with my brother and his wife, who were cool, but they wanted their apartment back.

Had I not been in a hurry I would have not accepted it the studio at that price, because it wasn't my favorite, but I thought, hey, it's only a year, if it is that bad, I can move. It was a lower unit -which I am so against - but it wasn't an issue until "RiverStomper" moved in over my head. There were problems with another guy who ran his car exhaust right into my window, despite our kind conversation that he would stop doing it.

So job is great, apartment sucks, traffic sucks, I am running on a severely tight budget and no fun money. This is starting to seem like a bad idea - even though I like the job, and I like lots about L.A. I am seeing that the day-to-day realities are really very stressful to deal with. Parking anywhere is a drama, drivers are extremely rude and dangerous...that's enough to make you just want to stay home...but you need groceries, etc. right? What a drag it has become though.

People are talking alot about illegal immigration (2006-2007), as the social services, schools and hospitals are all announcing that it is a drain on their resources. And for my 2 cents, back in the 90's, it felt like L.A. had just the right mix of of different cultures, but no one wants to feel like a stranger in a strange land.

On the subway, I am one of 5 white people - everyone else is Hispanic. Walking around downtown, 7th & Fig, when I look, I see a mostly Hispanic population. At Universal Studios, at the beach, at the mall...I'm the one who doesn't fit in...the Hispanic population is L.A. now, where before they were part of L.A. now they represent L.A. That is my personal opinion and that is pretty undisputed, even by city-data's own info, that L.A. is 49% Hispanic.

L.A. - in my opinion, from my perspective - is permanently changed. I will say, that as a white person, when everyone around you is speaking Spanish and you are the only white person, well, it doesn't feel like America anymore.

I am saying this not to bash Mexicans or incite anyone, but, since this is the reality of how the population is changing, it is stupid to pretend it is not happening, and we simply can't look the other way and ignore it.

When I think of the L.A. that I fell in love with, I would describe it as a little dangerous, a little glamorous, a little rock n'roll and a little hippy-dippy/new-agey. The L.A. I experienced most recently is exhausting, expensive, overcrowded to ridiculous proportions and is not somewhere the average middle-class American can succeed. The average illegal immigrant can, however, and that shifts neighborhoods around, too, because now no one wants to live too close to "that" neighborhood and rents climb to keep out the illegals - my theory only; there is no study, no link, just my theory.

I would also argue that today, I could not move to L.A. like I did when I was 20, because for one, no landlord would rent to that many people in the areas where I would live. The credit check phenomenon prevents a lot of people from actually living there, also, since 99% of landlords want a spotless credit report. Back in the 90's not so much. I don't know what occurs in the densely populated Hispanic neighborhoods, but I would hazard to guess that the rules of how many people per bedroom rule is often overlooked and that is how the illegals can make it. There is no neighborhood like that for low-income or moderate income white folks, so we aren't moving there because...we can't!

The influx of millions and millions of illegal immigrants have changed the landscape of "my" L.A. forever and - again, my belief - it's a bad thing when another country's citizens can so quickly alter a city and perhaps damage forever what has made L.A. a world-class destination. Sooner or later, the immigrant class will outnumber the elite class and I would imagine that greater changes are yet in store and likely not for the better.

I do still have a soft spot in my heart for "my" L.A. but, the reality is that if I were to go back - and a part of me is quite tempted to do so - I would have to accept today's L.A. and not my dusty memories... In fact, I am more of the feeling that I'd have to just get L.A. out of my head altogether and search out less populated areas of Cali, and maybe that might be better for me, personally.

PLEASE NOTE: This post is *strictly* for Mr. Welch ~ there are sentiments here that my enrage or delight or bore some of you, but I won't be back here on this post to defend anything I've said, because I've said it, I believe it and I'm done with this thread. I don't hate Mexicans, I don't hate Illegal Immigrants; I do not like what has happened to L.A. because of the population change to majority-minority. That doesn't make me prejudiced, it makes me quite normal. That's why there is a Koreatown and a Chinatown...people like to feel like they fit in, that's all.

Thanks for reading but I will not reply to anyone but Mr. Welch.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

For ppl who can only see the negative because of their situation it may seem like denial when others don't think the same way. Why isn't everyone miserable and planning to leave right? But that is your reality, not the next person walking down the steet. Hence the original question. How has it effected you? And does that effect CA's charm for you.

If someone is stuck on the hampster wheel locked into the concrete jungle without any chance to see beyond the buildings then by all means go. If one is misreable then why stay? What's the point in paying a premium for something you never have the chance to enjoy? You may as well move to the Detroit. And at least there you can buy a big cheap house on the lake. Yet many others Californians do find the time to break away from the cities to enjoy the nicer things which the state has to offer. There are millions who still do enjoy living in CA reagrdless of the economic highs and lows.

Its not a one size fits all. Everyone has a different California experience. So tell your story. But don't expect eveyone to see it your way or be in denial. Thats called projection and small minded at best.

Derek

I was born there and lived there until a year ago, and agree it is truely a beautiful state. But I was stuck in the IE, with traffic, smog, rush, and on a fixed income. No money to go out and enjoy things since it costs so much just to maintain.

Where I am now, I look out my window to see a bank of trees the sun rises over. There are not crowds. With the cost of living so much less I get less but still end up with more. I think I made a very fair trade. Have I renoucned being a californian? naw, never will. But I picked a place where it isn't rushed and it is open and I can have some of that beauty and nature where when I look out a window. (And Oklahoma has its share of beauty too).

What I moved away from was the crowding, the smog, the rush, and the gangs. And that sense that what my state was is gone and I can't get it back. I still love to see the mountains. Not much for the beach. The parts of the desert where it hasn't been filled with houses are good to look at too. I didn't see them often and when I go out to see family see them more often than before so I'm good.

I think that California has lost its "charm" far more to those who were there a long time and remember what it was before it became so crowded and socal on big suburb. Its all relative. I wish people would stop accusing those who disagree that its the great golden state of bashing it. Who knows what perception each of us have? Same thing with those who have to bash the midwestern/southern states because they are not California. Its all in what interests you and what your lookiing for.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by majoun

I know what you're talking about.

Think Sweden. Now, Sweden was socialist for years and was a perfectly OK place to live, but a certain group of people got in who imported "PC" from California and who were enthralled with radical feminism and social control and made Sweden more repressive. One of the problems with Eurosocialism is that it has a high potential to turn into fascism (refer to Hayek's "Road To Serfdom") if the wrong people are in power ; the earlier socialists generally were tolerant sorts, but after the late '80s this new group of socialists who were decidedly intolerant decided they'd use socialism to control peoples' lives and restrict peoples' freedoms. The earlier socialists had generally appealed to the working classes, but this new crowd didn't have any use for the working classes being that they tended to be elitist intellectuals who held that "women were the true working class" and that the little guy was part of the problem. Instead of doing something about the immigration problem they sought to restrict the freedoms on the individual with the tacit message sent out that said laws would primarily be used against illegals, as it might not be "nice" and "PC" to confront the problem and too much money was being made. So, prostitution was banned, drug laws were stiffened, high taxes were slapped on alcohol, and, finally, smoking was banned in public places. This new type of Swedish socialist then imposed their agenda on the EU as a whole. Underneath the PC veneer lies a sort of soft fascism.

Sound familiar? It should....

Good food for thought. For a long time I considered myself a liberal. The JFK classic comment hit home. But the current agenda really turns me off. The PC world turns me off. Most of all the idea of fixing everything by restricting liberties and freedoms turns me off. I don't much like the conservatives either for they are a fringe too. Todays version of the liberal has moved further left than before and is different, just as has the conservative agenda. If we grow a pool of people who don't call themselves either and don't live by agendas that would be a *good* thing.

And your right about the overall pc mission.

[guyincognito]

Originally Posted by Charles

This is only part of the story.

Tell us what cities you could be transferred to.
Also, what living situation do you envision over the next ten years (single, married, kids, etc.)?

With those two pieces of information, we can comment on places you might like.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail this thread seeking help for my own situation. But to answer the question whether California has lost its charm, I was just pointing out that for many who don't live in California, it still holds an air of mystique and allure despite much of the negative press it receives nationally. My own assessment on frequent visits to the San Jose area, El Segundo, and Anaheim is that California unfortunately does not currently live up to the hype, although I'm not sure if it ever did or could.

It's still a great place to visit, but it's clear to me in talking with people that I work with that living there is no picnic. Beyond its geographically-bestowed gifts I think California falls short in what a lot of other states can offer.

[nancy thereader]

You wanna talk UFC wannabes? Chuck Lidell lives in my town


Ummmm, who's Chuck Lidell ?