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Old 08-13-2009, 06:42 PM
25,740 posts, read 25,307,692 times
Reputation: 24337


Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia View Post
Caltrans recently spent $150k for a "welcome to OC" sign in Buena Park on the 5. The state's broke and handing out IOU's instead of money yet there's money for an expensive sign that'll just get grafitti'ed over soon. How about the social service agencies that spend our money to advertise that there's free money to be had and they won't even ask if you're here legally? How about the billboards and radio ads telling people how to raise their kids? The state cries that there's not enough money yet they find money for stupid crap like this. I just recently read that a bunch of UCI professors say the solution to UC's recent funding cutback is to simply raise income taxes. What a bunch of geniuses! Asking the government if they have enough money is like asking a drug addict if they could use another hit. What do you think their answer is going to be?
Awesome. You have a few very specific things that you apparently feel will save the state from bankruptcy. For instance, not putting up any more billboard signs or radio ads. And not boosting morale by beautifying former wrecks or putting up new signs. You've contacted representatives about this, then? I mean these specifics, and these suggestions?

How much money do you believe will be saved by these measures? Where would the money go?

Old 08-13-2009, 07:44 PM
12,825 posts, read 20,083,528 times
Reputation: 10910
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Which "great masters"? Curious. Are you simply saying he had at least a high school education? (Great masters isn't a phrase typically applied to writers, BTW. It can be loosely used as a description but there's no "group" of great masters in literature the way there is in art so I don't know who you mean...But frankly, whether you're talking Shakespeare or Plato, neither is likely to give an immigrant a leg up on how to become part of a new culture, any more so than any average Joe off the street could. Learn the language; work. There you have it. If Grandpa was able to recite the Tomorrow speech I'm not sure how that would have made him more attractive to employers than Emilio the Fence Ripper. "Sir, I've read books." "What? YOU'RE HIRED! You may begin taking out the garbage immediately.")

What you show above definitely does not describe the majority of Ellis Island immigrants. Yes, many were willing to work. A minority spoke English or any other language than their own. As for a "business plan," OMG. Hon. Please. Turn-of-the-past-century immigrants? The type of work they did didn't typically involve a business plan...unless the plan stated: "I. Land on Island. II. Receive new, misspelling of last name. III. Find work doing something menial, a little bit gross and potentially fatal because nobody wants to hire Irish/Polish/Italian/Chinese/etc. for jobs they'd rather reserve for the "good" people. IV. Move up from ditch digger to ditch digging foreman by telling the boss the political motivation behind the writing of MacBeth, and why it's in error on various points. V. Retire rich!"

But you're comparing one fantasy--that of the elite, well-read European immigrant jumping right into contracting or banking in the U.S. fresh off the boat because he had "a plan" (yes, that surely would have worked for virtually any sick, half-starved ex-Russian right off the boat...how could it fail?)--to "Emilio cutting a hole in the fence". I'm sure "Emilio" was making his way into the U.S. a hundred years ago, and two hundred years ago. But frankly, even someone digging a hole in the fence doesn't automatically make him unskilled.

I would not necessarily have compared Ellis Island immigration to today's immigration--that was another poster--but now that the comparison has been brought up, I thought it only prudent to correct a "fact" or two. No. The average 20th century immigrant did not have a "business plan," nor did he or she speak English in anything other than a few broken words. And the average Ellis Island immigrant did not have a high school education, because the average European of the time did not have a high school education. (Nor did the average U.S. citizen, I believe. I'll have to dig up a link but I'm pretty sure I read the average U.S. citizen had an 8th grade education until World War II.) That doesn't mean immigrants were stupid. Far from it. It meant they were poor and were coming to America for opportunity. Just like the Mexicans you're talking about. The vast majority of today's Mexican immigrants weren't invited by the nation or anything and are not wealthy. The vast majority of early 20th century immigrants weren't invited by anyone, trust me, and were not wealthy. Your view of European immigrants being somehow superior is a little unsettling, and very telescopic. In addition, it requires the throwing away of actual history and adopting a completely revised view based on what makes one feel comfortable...another thing I personally find a bit unsettling. But I digress.

And again. This is being given apparently as California's downfall today. So how exactly has this particular issue created money problems for California today but not formerly? We don't even have to go as far back as the early 20th century. Why wasn't California steadily this bankrupt all along during the past several decades, without interruption, given the fact that there has been Mexican immigration, both legal and illegal, steadily during that time too? I am trying like heck to get real answers here amid all the repetitive sterotype-throwing and enormous generalizations. I still don't really see anything specific to support this assertion other than 20th century immigrants apparently being educated businessmen (???) and today's immigrant obviously being a complete and irredeemable piece of shoot. (Sigh. If not for generalizations, where would we be?)
I will not attempt a point by point rebuttal as I lack the time. My gramps was by no means elite. He only had an 8th grade education. But he was literate and inquisitive. Importantly, he was in love with the idea of the US, even as a child. He had plans for shopkeeping and brought them to fruition. Then went into sales. Then went into dairy farming which he retired from comfortably. Somewhere in there he managed to join the US Army and be a Doughboy. May he rest in peace and God bless him, and all troops before and after him.

Interestingly you completely ignored my point about refined Mexicans not really coming here. It is very difficult for them. We make it very difficult for legal immigrants. That is a big change from the old Ellis Island days.
Old 08-13-2009, 07:52 PM
25,740 posts, read 25,307,692 times
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Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post

Interestingly you completely ignored my point about refined Mexicans not really coming here. It is very difficIult for them. We make it very difficult for legal immigrants. That is a big change from the old Ellis Island days.
I ignored it because it's something I don't know anything about so I couldn't really put in my $.02. I don't like to argue a point I just don't know anything about...that doesn't contribute anything.

I am not trying to diss Gramps, may he rest in peace, and I mean that (having loved my own Grampa, no "D" in there, dearly). But your Gramps was not the typical European immigrant based on what you described and that was the point I was trying to make, because that period in history is something I know about.

Your Gramps left you with inquisitiveness and a legacy but he wasn't necessarily the typical European immigrant and deadbeat Mexicans aren't necessarily the typical Mexican immigrants either. As I said, I know many, many, many Mexicans who work, and work hard and that's the point I was trying to make there. It's too narrow to decide your small test sample (your famiy) and my small test sample (people I have met in only four years of living here) could be, from either example, the basic truth of Southern California as a whole so I'm relying on what I do know: history. I'm looking for someone to tie it into the present as far as how we could help California now but I'm not seeing a lot of specifics in that direction and it's frustrating. As I said, some of us must continue to live here and would like to see things get better. (And to be fair, some people love living here...no "must" about it...I'm sure they feel the same.)

It's just very frustrating to hear a lot of anger and generalizations without any real solutions.

But that aside I did not mean to diss your Gramps.

If you're saying the quality of people is lower because it's more difficult for quality people to get into California now then that's one thing and could have a solution somewhere...In what ways is it more difficult? Again, this here is an area I don't know anything about. (Yet.)

I just didn't like the extremes that seemed to say European immigrants are/were scrappy, smart folks but Mexicans are trashy and only drag everything down. I don't feel that's fair and am wondering how it could be accurate.
Old 08-13-2009, 08:31 PM
266 posts, read 858,002 times
Reputation: 124
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
And so do many Mexicans.

Not all Mexicans; just as not all European immigrants did/do.

Again, this ties into Mexicans being the downfall of California's economy today but not in the past because...?

(p.s. Obviously a handful or two of Mexicans are willing to work...as evidenced by extreme dearth of white people out mowing their own lawns or scrubbing their own floors. I do both of those things, BTW, white or not, and I get people shouting weird stuff at me out their windows as they drive by because it's apparently so completely weird to see a white woman mowing a lawn. God forbid! That's for the Mexicans to do. Except they don't work. Um...something's not adding up here, folks. [shrug])

Gosh darn it but everyone in my neighborhood does their own yard work! It is good exercise and I have never liked someone messin with my grass!

I have never had folks roll down their windows to say yell at me as I cut the lawn!!! You must live in a very strange area?

This discussion is a little weird even for this forum.........

It is time for me to move to help people with their relocation questions!
I aim to serve!!!
Old 08-14-2009, 05:21 AM
Location: Norwood, MN
1,828 posts, read 3,356,081 times
Reputation: 881
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Look, again, it's not like this is anything new. It wasn't too late when immigrants both legal and illegal poured in dozens of years ago or a century ago, so why is it too late now? What is it specifically that has changed, IYO? That is an honest question and not snottiness.
What has changed is there is just no room for them anymore. There are lots of citizens that cant find a decent job.
Old 08-14-2009, 09:41 AM
25,740 posts, read 25,307,692 times
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Originally Posted by big daryle View Post
What has changed is there is just no room for them anymore. There are lots of citizens that cant find a decent job.
Well, that makes sense. Thank you. So you're saying it's the total amount of people we have. I do know this state is more populated than any other in the country.
Old 08-14-2009, 09:49 AM
25,740 posts, read 25,307,692 times
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Originally Posted by Den Mathias View Post
Gosh darn it but everyone in my neighborhood does their own yard work! It is good exercise and I have never liked someone messin with my grass!

I have never had folks roll down their windows to say yell at me as I cut the lawn!!! You must live in a very strange area?
I actually live in The Very Straight and Narrow Suburbs. So who knows. (shrug) Yes, it IS weird, but OTOH, as I said, people do NOT mow their own yards around here. Except my family. We're it...

Yesterday it was "Keep workin' it, girl!" yelled out a car window by...a dude.

But bottom line: in my neighborhood at least, yes, there are certainly a lot of immigrants "workin' it".
Old 08-14-2009, 09:52 AM
2,325 posts, read 6,091,666 times
Reputation: 1009
Originally Posted by bluewatergirl888 View Post
With all of the problems I am reading about California, I want to know what the people living there think it will take to get the state back on a better road.

Major problems seem to be overcrowding, expensive, too many illegals, lack of good government, and poor school system.

What do you feel will make the state better, or is it too late? Or do you feel that the problems are not as great as people make them out to be?

I have never lived there (except for an extended stay) but have visited many times. It is such a beautiful place, I am sad to see it in such a bad predicament.
I would say never. It is going to get worse and never get better. Huge population explosion, class war, poor Vs. rich, ethnic racism by everyone. Politicians going for votes hoping nothing bad happens during their term.
Old 08-14-2009, 10:12 AM
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,274 posts, read 55,023,526 times
Reputation: 15312
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
When my maternal grandfather arrived at Ellis Island in 1912, he spoke three languages and had several business plans written. He'd already read several of the great masters (as he worked as a merchant seaman for a while prior).
This is why America is so beautiful-The oppurtunities are open to anyone who works really hard. I say that because my dad came here(from the South Pacific)in 1969 with barely any pocket money and an 8th grade education. He worked his fingers to the bone from dawn till dusk-sometimes later, to make sure his wife and kids were taken care of. He may not have finished high school but 6 of his 7 children have graduate degrees(the 7th is graduating High School next year) and we've taken his dreams for us to a level he never expected.

Sorry, but objectively, the current arrivals are not as well trained and have less to offer other than sweat equity.
But these are the kind of people who want to come here for the most part. I was in Germany last year and came across tons of people who came to the US to study but had no interest in staying here-they just wanted to attend school and go back. Now that I think about it, US Universities and Colleges turn out many of the most productive people in other countries.

Meanwhile, we discourage people like my grandfather by making it very difficult to come here legally - and that is true even for educated and refined Mexicans from Central Mexico. Almost none of them arriving here.
As someone who lives in Latin America, I can say that refined people there generally dont have a need to come here. They have great lives, they live in beautiful homes, drive nice cars, take vacations to Europe and Disneyland, etc.
Old 08-14-2009, 10:24 AM
8,266 posts, read 26,285,621 times
Reputation: 4395
Immgration forum is where this belongs....
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