What will it take to get California back on track? (Buena Park: how much, homes)

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by big daryle

It is too late. california has allowed millions of unskilled parasites to settle there, now it must pay the price.

Look, again, it's not like this is anything new. It wasn't too late when immigrants both legal and illegal poured in dozens of years ago or a century ago, so why is it too late now? What is it specifically that has changed, IYO? That is an honest question and not snottiness.

[BRinSM]

i was going to ask this Daryle guy the same thing and also mention these same types of 'parasites' invaded our borders by ship 100-150 years, some of which he probably decended from. Most entered through NY, although that area has its problems, i don't think anyone would say that it's 'too late' for NY and that it might as well fall of the map.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Originally Posted by JerZ

Look, again, it's not like this is anything new. It wasn't too late when immigrants both legal and illegal poured in dozens of years ago or a century ago, so why is it too late now? What is it specifically that has changed, IYO? That is an honest question and not snottiness.

When my maternal grandfather arrived at Ellis Island in 1912, he spoke three languages and had several business plans written. He'd already read several of the great masters (as he worked as a merchant seaman for a while prior).

Compare that with Emilio cutting a hole in the fence.

Sorry, but objectively, the current arrivals are not as well trained and have less to offer other than sweat equity.

Meanwhile, we discourage people like my grandfather by making it very difficult to come here legally - and that is true even for educated and refined Mexicans from Central Mexico. Almost none of them arriving here.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by JerZ

Oh please, our taxes, all things considered, are not so much higher than everyone else's. Taxes are just one thing people like to complain about in general and every state thinks it has the market cornered on how high they all are (except perhaps for one or two). "But our property taxes..." "But our sales tax..." "But that silly 1% tax on..."

"Just cut out the crap" is a heck of a novel idea. If you have anything solid to offer rather than what your grandfather and his dad before him used to bark out vaguely from an armchair in the living room, please do let us know. That is if you're concerned about really changing things rather than just recycling the same old-same old as far as complaints are concerned.

So let's try again. "Cut out the crap." Where? By whom? What sort of savings would be seen? For all the not-spent-on-crap funds, where would that money go?

I mean here's the thing, EC. I know you're not huge on California any more. Besides the obviousness of your username, you've been on here a while and I've been on here a while and I've seen a lot of the stuff you've written. And yes, I can relate a lot of the time and dream pretty much daily of moving to an area that's more my speed. But that doesn't change things for people who really have to be here for the time being--and for people who really want to be here and want to make it all work. People like my husband who were born here don't want to see the state crumble into ashes. Real solutions are called for rather than just unilateral complaints.

Caltrans recently spent $150k for a "welcome to OC" sign in Buena Park on the 5. The state's broke and handing out IOU's instead of money yet there's money for an expensive sign that'll just get grafitti'ed over soon. How about the social service agencies that spend our money to advertise that there's free money to be had and they won't even ask if you're here legally? How about the billboards and radio ads telling people how to raise their kids? The state cries that there's not enough money yet they find money for stupid crap like this. I just recently read that a bunch of UCI professors say the solution to UC's recent funding cutback is to simply raise income taxes. What a bunch of geniuses! Asking the government if they have enough money is like asking a drug addict if they could use another hit. What do you think their answer is going to be?

[treedonkey]

Armageddon.

But the same is true for the rest of the world true, so don't take it personally, CA!

[Den Mathias]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

When my maternal grandfather arrived at Ellis Island in 1912, he spoke three languages and had several business plans written. He'd already read several of the great masters (as he worked as a merchant seaman for a while prior).

Compare that with Emilio cutting a hole in the fence.

Sorry, but objectively, the current arrivals are not as well trained and have less to offer other than sweat equity.

Meanwhile, we discourage people like my grandfather by making it very difficult to come here legally - and that is true even for educated and refined Mexicans from Central Mexico. Almost none of them arriving here.

How right you are.

And, back in the day the new immigrants had the whole western half of the country to spread out to. There were many more ways for folks to assimilate. And assimilate they did!

My French Canadian and German relatives went to a separate "english" school in the evening to learn the language. The Italian branch did stay a little more to themselves in NY but eventually they too fit in and moved to Chicago.

So, I think the times they are very different from the Ellis Island experience and would be hard to compare to the situation today no matter how folks would like to.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

When my maternal grandfather arrived at Ellis Island in 1912, he spoke three languages and had several business plans written. He'd already read several of the great masters (as he worked as a merchant seaman for a while prior).

Which "great masters"? Curious. Are you simply saying he had at least a high school education? (Great masters isn't a phrase typically applied to writers, BTW. It can be loosely used as a description but there's no "group" of great masters in literature the way there is in art so I don't know who you mean...But frankly, whether you're talking Shakespeare or Plato, neither is likely to give an immigrant a leg up on how to become part of a new culture, any more so than any average Joe off the street could. Learn the language; work. There you have it. If Grandpa was able to recite the Tomorrow speech I'm not sure how that would have made him more attractive to employers than Emilio the Fence Ripper. "Sir, I've read books." "What? YOU'RE HIRED! You may begin taking out the garbage immediately.")

What you show above definitely does not describe the majority of Ellis Island immigrants. Yes, many were willing to work. A minority spoke English or any other language than their own. As for a "business plan," OMG. Hon. Please. Turn-of-the-past-century immigrants? The type of work they did didn't typically involve a business plan...unless the plan stated: "I. Land on Island. II. Receive new, misspelling of last name. III. Find work doing something menial, a little bit gross and potentially fatal because nobody wants to hire Irish/Polish/Italian/Chinese/etc. for jobs they'd rather reserve for the "good" people. IV. Move up from ditch digger to ditch digging foreman by telling the boss the political motivation behind the writing of MacBeth, and why it's in error on various points. V. Retire rich!"

But you're comparing one fantasy--that of the elite, well-read European immigrant jumping right into contracting or banking in the U.S. fresh off the boat because he had "a plan" (yes, that surely would have worked for virtually any sick, half-starved ex-Russian right off the boat...how could it fail?)--to "Emilio cutting a hole in the fence". I'm sure "Emilio" was making his way into the U.S. a hundred years ago, and two hundred years ago. But frankly, even someone digging a hole in the fence doesn't automatically make him unskilled.

I would not necessarily have compared Ellis Island immigration to today's immigration--that was another poster--but now that the comparison has been brought up, I thought it only prudent to correct a "fact" or two. No. The average 20th century immigrant did not have a "business plan," nor did he or she speak English in anything other than a few broken words. And the average Ellis Island immigrant did not have a high school education, because the average European of the time did not have a high school education. (Nor did the average U.S. citizen, I believe. I'll have to dig up a link but I'm pretty sure I read the average U.S. citizen had an 8th grade education until World War II.) That doesn't mean immigrants were stupid. Far from it. It meant they were poor and were coming to America for opportunity. Just like the Mexicans you're talking about. The vast majority of today's Mexican immigrants weren't invited by the nation or anything and are not wealthy. The vast majority of early 20th century immigrants weren't invited by anyone, trust me, and were not wealthy. Your view of European immigrants being somehow superior is a little unsettling, and very telescopic. In addition, it requires the throwing away of actual history and adopting a completely revised view based on what makes one feel comfortable...another thing I personally find a bit unsettling. But I digress.

And again. This is being given apparently as California's downfall today. So how exactly has this particular issue created money problems for California today but not formerly? We don't even have to go as far back as the early 20th century. Why wasn't California steadily this bankrupt all along during the past several decades, without interruption, given the fact that there has been Mexican immigration, both legal and illegal, steadily during that time too? I am trying like heck to get real answers here amid all the repetitive sterotype-throwing and enormous generalizations. I still don't really see anything specific to support this assertion other than 20th century immigrants apparently being educated businessmen (???) and today's immigrant obviously being a complete and irredeemable piece of shoot. (Sigh. If not for generalizations, where would we be?)

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by Den Mathias

And, back in the day the new immigrants had the whole western half of the country to spread out to.

They still do, unless there's an electrified fence at the Oregon border that nobody told me about.

There's a Mexican immigrant population in Bergen County, NJ, where I'm from. Obviously people are still able to spread out.

These are some very weird arguments, folks.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by treedonkey

Armageddon.

But the same is true for the rest of the world true, so don't take it personally, CA!

LOL. We won't. I tried to rep ya for making me laugh but apparently I already gave you love at some point; I just don't remember it. (Shades of Sophomore year. Kidding, folks, kidding.)

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by Den Mathias

My French Canadian and German relatives went to a separate "english" school in the evening to learn the language.

And so do many Mexicans.

Not all Mexicans; just as not all European immigrants did/do.

Again, this ties into Mexicans being the downfall of California's economy today but not in the past because...?

(p.s. Obviously a handful or two of Mexicans are willing to work...as evidenced by extreme dearth of white people out mowing their own lawns or scrubbing their own floors. I do both of those things, BTW, white or not, and I get people shouting weird stuff at me out their windows as they drive by because it's apparently so completely weird to see a white woman mowing a lawn. God forbid! That's for the Mexicans to do. Except they don't work. Um...something's not adding up here, folks. [shrug])