School rankings and test scores. (Pasadena: neighborhoods, salary, taxes)

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by proudmommy

Currently it costs around $8000 per kid per year for a government education. Private schools do it for less than half that amount.

Which private schools are you referring to? I can think of three near our area, none of which costs less than $9,500 (and that one's a parochial school). In addition, tuition and fees don't include the required parent donations, volunteer time, and mandatory fundraisers each year. Don't forget to add the cost of textbooks, which is substantial.

[proudmommy]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

Which private schools are you referring to? I can think of three near our area, none of which costs less than $9,500 (and that one's a parochial school). In addition, tuition and fees don't include the required parent donations, volunteer time, and mandatory fundraisers each year. Don't forget to add the cost of textbooks, which is substantial.

Public schools don't "require" parent donations, volunteer time, and fundraisers too? I have three kids in govy schools now and every week there is something we are "required" to fund in some sort of way, candy sales, cookie dough sales, classroom supplies, field trips, music equipment, gym supplies, etc

"The Education Department figures show that the average private elementary school tuition in America is less than $2,500. The average tuition for all private schools, elementary and secondary, is $3,116, or less than half of the cost per pupil in the average public school, $6,857. A survey of private schools in Indianapolis, Jersey City, San Francisco, and Atlanta shows that there are many options available to families with $3,000 to spend on a child's education. Even more options would no doubt appear if all parents were armed with $3,000 vouchers."

from

Private Schools Cost Less Than You May Think | David Salisbury | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by proudmommy

Public schools don't "require" parent donations, volunteer time, and fundraisers too?

Our kids have been in both, and no, I did not see that requirement in the public schools, whereas it was definitely mandatory in private schools. I remember being a room mother several times for our kids' classrooms when a good third of the students' parent(s) never returned a phone call, sent a box of napkins for a class party, etc, etc. Same with the PTA....mostly run by the same parents, year after year. You can't do that when your children are in private school, since supposedly their tuition doesn't truly cover the cost of their education. (Or so parents are told...)

"The Education Department figures show that the average private elementary school tuition in America is less than $2,500...."

May be true as an average in the U.S. but it is definitely NOT true in California.

[proudmommy]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

May be true as an average in the U.S. but it is definitely NOT true in California.

I can't confirm that; I can't deny that (too lazy too look it up), but even if it is true, say California is $3500, or even $4500, that is still a lot less than $8000 - and parents are the bosses, not the politicians.

[.highnlite]

A couple of points on private schools. A teacher doesn't have to be credentialed and the pay is about half what public school teachers make.

So, the first question one must ask is; why would a teacher work for half what they could be making?

There are a lot of reasons, the best is that the school is based on an idea that greatly appeals to the teacher, such as a religious school.


Another two reasons are; the teacher cannot get hired in a public school for one reason or another, and or has been let go from public schools for one reason or another.

An analogy I like to use when considering private school or public.

You need a new roof on your house, do you hire the state licensed contractor with years of training?
Or do you hire an unlicensed contractor that has not been trained.

There is yet another problem with some private schools, I ran into this with my middle school son. I wanted him in an outdoors based hands on science private school. This school, in order to pay its bills took in behavior problem students who had been tossed out of public school. The negative effect of these students affected the education of the others.

There are those who want their kids in private schools or home schooled because the public schools are "bad" or teachers are a bunch of liberal commie pinkos teaching homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle.

For these kinds of parents, I fully support their withdrawing the kid from public school. It makes life a little easier for everyone else.

[proudmommy]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

A couple of points on private schools. A teacher doesn't have to be credentialed and the pay is about half what public school teachers make.

So, the first question one must ask is; why would a teacher work for half what they could be making?

There are a lot of reasons, the best is that the school is based on an idea that greatly appeals to the teacher, such as a religious school.


Another two reasons are; the teacher cannot get hired in a public school for one reason or another, and or has been let go from public schools for one reason or another.

An analogy I like to use when considering private school or public.

You need a new roof on your house, do you hire the state licensed contractor with years of training?
Or do you hire an unlicensed contractor that has not been trained.

There is yet another problem with some private schools, I ran into this with my middle school son. I wanted him in an outdoors based hands on science private school. This school, in order to pay its bills took in behavior problem students who had been tossed out of public school. The negative effect of these students affected the education of the others.

There are those who want their kids in private schools or home schooled because the public schools are "bad" or teachers are a bunch of liberal commie pinkos teaching homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle.

For these kinds of parents, I fully support their withdrawing the kid from public school. It makes life a little easier for everyone else.

There's a certain amount of truth to that in the current environment in which the majority of kids are trained in government schools. In fact it goes the opposite way too as private schools in general out perform public schools in general - but for different reasons than mentioned in the quote. The reason is private schools have a self selecting demographic for the most part. High IQ, More money, private schools, hi IQ kids in private schools, high success rate.

If there were no government schools and all schools were private the economic dynamic drastically changes. Also, If the parents want their kids educated by lesbians or pinkos or communists or John Birchers or muslims or trade school or agriculture or tech or arts or whatever, then that's their choice - not the politicians' choice.
Finally, the market economy will weed out the bad teachers - or you will get what you pay for. You want cheap contractor to put a roof on your house? You get a cheap roof. You want bare bones education? You'll have that choice too.

[.highnlite]

. In fact it goes the opposite way too as private schools in general out perform public schools in general -

Your metric?

[proudmommy]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Your metric?

Realize the reasons private schools outperform public schools isn't because their philosophies are any different. It is because of the self selecting demographic. Low functioning parents are less likely to send their low functioning kids to private schools.

Private Schools Outperform Public Schools In Math - Education Tax Credits (http://educationtaxcredits.com/2009/10/private-schools-outperform-public.html - broken link)

Private Schools Outperform Public Schools - An Authoritative News Source for Elementary School, High School, and Higher Education News and Education Articles

•September 2003: SAT Scores for Class of 2003 (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-03.html#Story5 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-02.html#Story4 - broken link)
•September 2002: SAT Scores for Class of 2002 (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-02.html#Story4 - broken link)


•December 2001: Private Schools Outpace National Average on AP Exams (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html#Story1 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html#Story1 - broken link)
•December 2001: Private School Students Above Average on Science Tests (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html#Story2 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html#Story2 - broken link)
•September 2001: High College-Going Rates for Minorities in Private Schools (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-01.html#Story2 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-01.html#Story2 - broken link)
•September 2001: SAT Scores for Class of 2001 (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-01.html#notes - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-01.html#notes - broken link)
•May 2001: Achievement Gap Narrower in Private Schools (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out5-01.html#Story1 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out5-01.html#Story1 - broken link)
•December 2000: Private Schools Above Average on International Tests (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-00.html#Story1 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-00.html#Story1 - broken link)
•September 2000: Private School Students Bolster National Exam Scores (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-00.html - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out9-00.html - broken link)
•December 1999: Private School Students Score Above Average in Civics (http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-99.html#Story2 - broken link)

(http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out10-99.html#Story2 - broken link)

[.highnlite]

What you have done is point out what should be obvious, it is not the school it is parent involvement. Weighted for socio-econ, private school may not any better, and I submit, may not do as well as public schools because of the lack of education education.

I have three kids in university, all products of public school education, I would put their education up against any private school. Daughter #2 aced the calculus National AP exam, taught by a public school teacher, in fact, the local Union president.

In my opinion, private school exist because of parent ego and or prejudices, much like "gifted" programs.

[proudmommy]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

What you have done is point out what should be obvious, it is not the school it is parent involvement. Weighted for socio-econ, private school may not any better, and I submit, may not do as well as public schools because of the lack of education education.

I have three kids in university, all products of public school education, I would put their education up against any private school. Daughter #2 aced the calculus National AP exam, taught by a public school teacher, in fact, the local Union president.

In my opinion, private school exist because of parent ego and or prejudices, much like "gifted" programs.

The success of your three kids is less likely due to the philosophy of the public school. It is more likely the product of their genes, you (as a parent), and their peers.

Your kids might be the first to tell you that three data points (their successes) doesn't prove the a generalization (public schools are better than private schools).

I think you would put their education at their public school against any private school. May very well be true. But they may be attending a top 5% public school.

It's like people assuming all Asians are smart. No, all Asians who happened to be wealthy and educated enough to move to the US are smart. The majority of Asians are picking rice back home somewhere.