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Old 06-13-2007, 03:30 PM
 
11,715 posts, read 35,825,280 times
Reputation: 7509

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post

Schools, are a perfect example of my line of thought. The couple in their 80's that sold me their home had one child who just turned 65 last month. This couple has more than paid far more than their "Fair" share into the system for the time their child used the system. They continued to pay for building and maintaining the system for those with children. They paid into the local system for 49 years.

Please don't become offended, but, I agree with you that we should pay for what we use and by this logic... elderly homeowners have long ago paid their "Fair" share into the system.

I agree with your statement, "Some are stuck paying for what other's use", especially adults that are childless...
The problem is when someone who's owned their house forever and thus pays little tax, rents it out to two or three familes, each with a couple of children in the local schools. Suddenly you have $1000/yr in tax trying to educate 6 kids. See: Santa Ana.

 
Old 06-13-2007, 04:14 PM
 
26,577 posts, read 51,928,678 times
Reputation: 20345
Default Excellent Point

You have brought up an excellent point. At one time, it was suggested that California have a "Split" Tax roll to address this very issue.

Basically a Split Tax Roll differentiates between business property, i.e rentals and and non-business property. The debate became very intense back in the 80's with, if I remember correctly, the biggest obstacle was setting up a system sophisticated enough to manage a Split Roll. The second was that many property owners did pass on a portion of their savings to renters. Prop 13 passage depended not only on the support of property owners, but also on the support on non-property owners.

Questions arose such as, I will be renting my home for a year while stationed overseas or I own more than one home and none are rented or I have a small vacation home or I'm in the process of building a home, etc.

I believe the only reason Prop 13 came into being is the California Legislature's failure to respond to the explosive rate of property taxation in the 70's. If the legislature had enacted a Split Roll, the cases of perceived inequities would be less and Prop 13 may not have passed.

A few posts back, there is a link about the same California situation now happening in Florida. I found it very interesting and I'm curious as to how Florida proposes to solve it. Florida has the added benefit of being able to review nearly 30 years of California's experience with Prop 13.
 
Old 06-13-2007, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,078 posts, read 3,489,711 times
Reputation: 488
I wise person once told me:
That all, even the eldary use the school system and should indeed pay their share.
Those kids that they pay to educate are their doctors, lawyers, lawmakers, etc. If we don't pay for these kids to get an education then we will pay to support them for their entire lives. NO thanks.It is better to pay larger tax base to the schools than to pay for prisons, govt assisted housing, food stamps, job training programs, etc. We are going to pay one way or the other and it is better to do it in the way that benefits giving everyone a chance to support themselves and to help those that come behind them.
MBG
 
Old 06-13-2007, 04:58 PM
 
26,577 posts, read 51,928,678 times
Reputation: 20345
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
I wise person once told me:
That all, even the eldary use the school system and should indeed pay their share.
Those kids that they pay to educate are their doctors, lawyers, lawmakers, etc. If we don't pay for these kids to get an education then we will pay to support them for their entire lives. NO thanks.It is better to pay larger tax base to the schools than to pay for prisons, govt assisted housing, food stamps, job training programs, etc. We are going to pay one way or the other and it is better to do it in the way that benefits giving everyone a chance to support themselves and to help those that come behind them.
MBG
It looks like we will just have to agree to disagree...

Midnightbirdgirl...will you even reconsider staying in California? How can you hope to effect change when you are leaving the fight and moving to Texas?

Califonia really needs all those that care about the future of our State to stay and be counted...
 
Old 06-13-2007, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,078 posts, read 3,489,711 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
It looks like we will just have to agree to disagree...

Midnightbirdgirl...will you even reconsider staying in California? How can you hope to effect change when you are leaving the fight and moving to Texas?

Califonia really needs all those that care about the future of our State to stay and be counted...
Thank you. But what I have discovered in life that sometimes change must be made for ones family and that is where it can be most effective. I am not giving up the fight, just doing what is best for those I love. My husband has already transferred to Texas, he is there now. My son is High Functioning Autistic and, there is nothing for him here. I have fought the good fight for years. But each year my husband's commute got longer was upwards of 3 hours each way... and each year my son looses out of services that Cali just does not have.
It is time to make family first. And Texas is better for our family.
Sorry.
MBG
 
Old 06-13-2007, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Newark, CA
22 posts, read 66,322 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
I wise person once told me:
That all, even the eldary use the school system and should indeed pay their share.
Those kids that they pay to educate are their doctors, lawyers, lawmakers, etc. If we don't pay for these kids to get an education then we will pay to support them for their entire lives. NO thanks is better to pay larger tax base to the schools than to pay for prisons, govt assisted housing, food stamps, job training programs, etc. We are going to pay one way or the other and it is better to do it in the way that benefits giving everyone a chance to support themselves and to help those that come behind them.
MBG
However, that is NOT what California schools do with the money. The school directly behind my house is a case in point.

Emphasis:
1) Ethnic and cultural pride. English speaking students are expected to "respect" others and learn Spanish, while expecting Spanish speakers to learn English is seen as racism, intolerance, and lack of respect for Latin American history and heritages.

2) Developing "self esteem" - so no grades, just levels 1,2,3. Level 1 is "significantly below grade level"; level 2 is "below grade level"; and Level 3 is "below grade level by six months or less, at grade level, or above grade level."

Here we have houses that look like the clown cars in the circus - 18 people living illegally in a single family residence - but in the interests of "mutual respect, tolerance, and communication", our city expects people of any culture other than illegal alien criminal to put up with noise, cars parked on lawns, plugged sewers from overuse, thefts, and open drug dealing.

I'm moving out of here ASAP. My only fear is that surrounding states will be Californicated by the same crowd that made the mess here. In Oregon we see "gun control" and "mutual respect" for illegal aliens when they cram in 18 to a house. We see homeowners required to retreat in their own homes from home invaders; and we see welfare and other programs that help subsidize this way of life.

When I came down from the Pacific Northwest, I was a liberal Democrat; nearly 20 years in California and I am definitely to the Right of Attila the Hun.
 
Old 06-13-2007, 08:09 PM
 
11,715 posts, read 35,825,280 times
Reputation: 7509
Quote:
Originally Posted by YakimaBelle View Post
When I came down from the Pacific Northwest, I was a liberal Democrat; nearly 20 years in California and I am definitely to the Right of Attila the Hun.
Ahh, nothing like having to live next door to the results of unchecked extreme liberalism to turn one around. Where do you want to move to?
 
Old 06-13-2007, 08:12 PM
 
26,577 posts, read 51,928,678 times
Reputation: 20345
Default Washington Maybe???

Not sure... but my guess would be Yakima Washington for YakimaBelle
 
Old 06-13-2007, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Fallon
38 posts, read 145,223 times
Reputation: 30
Default Had To Leave

I lived in the Lancaster area but had to move 3 years ago due to the Enron collapse. I'd go back tommorow but the high cost of living and the low paying jobs in the area did me in. Currently in Northern Neveda and it's worse
 
Old 06-13-2007, 09:00 PM
 
Location: The Big D
14,874 posts, read 37,114,401 times
Reputation: 5787
"My only fear is that surrounding states will be Californicated by the same crowd that made the mess here. In Oregon we see "gun control" and "mutual respect" for illegal aliens when they cram in 18 to a house. We see homeowners required to retreat in their own homes from home invaders; and we see welfare and other programs that help subsidize this way of life."

THANK YOU!!! And hopefully those Californians that DO move to the other states like my homestate, Texas, don't get mad when we don't see things their way and are not so gung-ho on changing to the "way things are done in Cali". I've read numerous unhappy Californians move to Texas and complain nonstop about our HIGH property taxes...... well at least OUR school system WORKS!

We have a program in Texas that has been debated over and over again since it came about called "Robinhood". Basically the richer the school system the more they have to pay into the state to be distributed to the poorer school districts. There are districts in the state that w/o these funds the education that would be given would be so far subpar it would be worse than anything seen anywhere in the U.S. I don't mind my tax dollars going to benefit kids in these other districts around me. Afterall it is not JUST kids from MY district that will be going out into the world to make a difference. As a matter of fact as an employer I think we have only had a handful of people thru the years that actually went thru the ISD that I live in. I want these kids to get a good education because they are our future. But I don't agree w/ the scenario you have described.

Sadly I must say though some of that is already happening in some of our local school districts. They no longer give out number grades or even A, B, C... but instead one does 1, 2, 3 or 4. No one "fails" (that would look bad on the school district and school ). This influence is coming from outside of Texas as this school district that does that is full of people that have come here from other states and wanted it to "look better" and they don't want their lil princess to "feel bad", blah, blah, blah. In other words the parents run the school district and the schools. That is not bad in some regards but when it comes to the kids actually getting an education and getting reprimanded it is bad.

As for the little old lady being priced out.......... well maybe they need to downsize in the first place. In reality can a older senior citizen adequately take proper care of a property w/o some assistance? Not in most cases. Now there are some that can and I have nothing at all against those that can do such on into their 80's. But when it comes to paying taxes to help support the community that they live in........ they should. The property taxes here go to pay for senior citizen centers, parks and walking trails, upkeep of roads, libraries, public transportation, public hospitals, emergency service (police, fire, ambulance and you know they are going to want THAT service), schools, etc. If a city were to suddenly be filled w/ people that are exempt from paying the fair amount of taxes to help support all of these services it would surely crumble. Emergency services, schools and roads would be the first on the chopping block. Several years ago Texas allowed local municipalities to freeze the tax they put on senior citizens (they already get a senior citizen exemption and so do those on disability along w/ our homestead exemption). The few cities that did it soon found they had a large influx of seniors moving in. Pretty soon the tax base coming in started falling and they were strapped for cash to even keep the city operating. So it was either cut back on all services or drop the freeze. There were a few cities that had a handful of citizens pushing to get this freeze put into place but it never passed the voters. In hindsight it is a good thing from seeing what happened to the few that did. Look at Vegas for a good example on this. Not too long ago a big story was done on how the flood of senior citizens moving there to take advantage of the tax situation was actually causing the city harm by losing their tax base. It is a double edged sword but one needs to step back and look at the big picture. I've got older retired parents and inlaws that are on fixed incomes, I've seen my grandparents live in their homes till they passed well into their 70's and 80's. My own great grandmother lived in her house until she passed close to 100. Not one of them was or has been "taxed out of" their house. But they HAVE made sure they saved funds for retirement (and NONE of them were rich by ANY means) and the property was sufficient for them to take care of and lived well w/in their means and had homes they stayed in for YEARS that were paid off well before retirement. So it CAN be done. As long as people keep their heads and don't let greed get in the way.
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