Leaving California (Fresno, Santa Ana, Corona: crime rate, credit card, daycare)

[Kathleenh54]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Yes... no question about it...

The longer you own your California home the greater your Property Tax Savings... and still... long time retired Home Owners are leaving California...

Most of the Elderly Retired paid to have the schools and roads built to begin with... if anything, I think they "Paid Forward" into the system for the future generations...

I pay $9,000 in property tax on my 1700 sq ft home and my neighbor pays $1,200 for the 2100 sq ft home THEY built in 1955. I don't begrudge them one bit and I expect to have the same benefit when I've lived in my home 50 plus years as they enjoy now.

The most important aspect of Prop 13 is predictability... both existing Home Owners and New Home Owners benefit by knowing how much their property taxes will go up each year. I have to live on a budget and the same is only fair to ask of my Government

My city has NEVER refused additional taxes or bonds for the public schools... Depending on the issue, that either means 50% + 1 voted for the measure of 66% voted in favor...

I find that most people that complain about Prop 13 don't understand how it works or have moved to California from other states...

The previous poster mentioned a Daughter that pays her Mothers low Prop 13 tax... Prop 13 does not give that privilege to anyone... the voters of California gave that right in another proposition passed several years after prop 13.

The intent was to allow the family to continue to own and not have to sell the family farm or home because of huge increased assessment when a parent moves or dies and a child takes over the "Homestead"

If you told your police, firemen, teachers and city services people that their salaries had to be tied to those increases, it wouldn't work. The only way it can work is for new people to pay more than longer-term residents. That is inherently unfair and a contributing factor in young families not able to buy homes.

It may be a nice thing to look forward to but meantime those city workers need to be paid somehow. If you ain't payin' it, your neighbor is.

However you look at the 'family homestead' preservation, it have had noble intentions at first but is being manipulated. If it costs seven-thousand dollars per child in public school, you have four kids in the system and your property taxes are seven hundred dollars, well then... you're freeloading.

Prop 13 is a disaster.

[Kathleenh54]

Originally Posted by YakimaBelle

I failed to mention that the farm was still income productive and supporting the family; unfortunately it couldn't pay for all the little piggies who wanted more development, more schools, and more goodies for civil servants.

If I hear one more teacher complain about being underpaid for a nine month, eight hour a day job, I am going to vomit. If income were that big an issue, I suspect that my local school district wouldn't have to import teachers from other districts to teach summer school - at an inflated salary rate.

To be honest, I have little respect for most so-called "educators", and none at all for almost all of the bureaucrats. The people who dropped out of the more difficult college majors, such as engineering, science, nutrition, and nursing in order to party back when I was at University seemed to all gravitate to the School of Education; and the only bunch with a lower average SAT score were the "ethnic studies" majors. As an engineer I have spent years working fifty-sixty hour weeks without overtime as California law exempts engineers from overtime provisions of the labor code. My neighbor down the street is an RN; she works like a dog, twelve months a year. Neither of us are particularly impressed by the complaints of civil servants who cannot be fired, receive benefits beyond our wildest dreams, and spend their spare time complaining about their income levels to us while insisting they can't teach summer school because they "need a break" or are "offended" because they were asked to stay fifteen minutes late at their bureaucracy office job without at least twenty-four hours written notice to help finish a project. I particularly liked the bad spelling and grammar on some of the picket signs at a not very far away school's teacher strike. Then there was the supervisory staff member in Oakland who insisted that "less than one percent" of the teachers in her district were African-American - after giving totals of all district teachers and all African-American teachers that made it clear that she was an order of magnitude off in her assessment. (Helpful hint, the percentage of African-American teachers in her district was far more than 10%, let alone 1%.) Needless to say, she is a leader in opposing both the C-Best for teachers and the high school graduation examinations.

You should have heard the laughter up and down the street here when one public employees group went on strike; people who initially supported them changed their minds when they found out what they were *already* getting, let alone what they now wanted.

As for the alleged "percentage of high school graduates" enjoyed by California over some other states, I can assure you that when interviewing applicants for assorted non-engineering positions in high technology I found quite a few alleged "high school graduates" who could not read the application form, and a number of resumes with numerous errors in spelling, grammar, or both. A significant number were unable to communicate in English, and expected me to learn whatever language they spoke; the most disturbing part of the language barrier was that for some English was allegedly their L1.

Yak, it sounds like there are more issues of concern to you than simply Prop 13.

Slice it, dice it any way you want. Services must be paid for somehow. If older residents can't pay their taxes then perhaps a tax break is warranted. It doesn't mean they don't need police or ambulance services or go to the library. These things aren't freebies.

As for the tax 'fraud' you mentioned, the procedure is entirely legal. The guy's wife bought the house from her parents; probably under that homesteading law put in place to prevent the situation you mentioned from happening.

Sorry you are so bitter about teachers, too. Have you ever been in a classroom with thirty-plus hormone-charged eighth graders? You couldn't pay me enough to do that. They are worth their salaries.

[antredd]

I find it quite interesting that when we talk about teachers, people like YakimBelle thinks that the majority of teachers are engineer dropouts or people who don't have an IQ as high as him as or her. The sad reality is that, we don't see a long line of Ivy League Graduates, or Magna *** Lades standing in line to teach. You wanna know why? It is because they can have a higher starting salary in their high tech or medical fields.

The sad reality is that people look at teachers as overpaid baby sitters who work just half a day and get every holiday and summers off. When the truth of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of teachers are not going into teaching to GET RICH, and depending on the school district we don't get off as much as you would think.

Let me clue you in on the teaching PROFESSION. Since I am an elementary teacher, I am going to tell you what a typical day is like for me in my district. Teachers have to report at work in by 7 or 7:30, depending on where they teach in my district based on the school busing. But many teachers arrive to work a lot earlier like 6 or 6:30 A.M just to catch up on grading papers, and planning for their day. A typical work day can be non-stop from the time I get to work until I dismiss my students at 2:30. Break, what is that when I may have yard duty for the week, and would have to be relieved by a fellow teacher on yard duty with me to go to the bath room for about 5 mins so that I can come back and relieve that teacher who may need to go just as bad as me before the bell rings within 15 mins.

Lunch time, hummmm? What is that? It may not happen because (being a teacher means I am supposed to care about my students) and I and many of my colleagues are sacrificing our lunch tutoring students who need extra help, because their parents can't help them, too high on drugs to help them, too drunk from alcohol, or simply just don't have the time to help their child from working long hours. On top of that, many of my students don't get the attention that they need from their parents and therefore, want to spend time with me just to talk. By now you should have inferred, that I don't work in an affluent surburban school district.

Ok it's 2:30 so that means I can go home now, after all, all I have done was dealt with small elementary aged students, how hard can that be? Hummm? Not, 2:30 is just the beginning of my planning for the next day or let me see I can't go home because l have the after school tutoring program that my school district thinks that every teacher should commit to weekly because we are a program improvement district which basically means low test scores that we need to get up, I have mandatory staff meetings that I have to attend, curriculum committee meetings I am forced to attend (without extra duty pay), I have lesson plans to do, I have to grade papers, data inputing the different skill tests in the computer for each child, call parents to verify absences or to report that their child called me or a fellow classmate an expletive for the 10th time all of which is done on my time.

Let's go to the No Child LEft Behind BILL. Our PResident thinks that it is realistic for every child, including our brain damaged special ed child, our learning disabled child, our newly arrived non english speaking child to be FULLY PROFICIENT IN ALL SUBJECT AREAS BY THE YEAR 2014. As a result, every teacher in CA, especially those of us who are working in a school district with low test scores and with a high second language learning population, which by the way is a large number of districts in CA, are required by LAW to provide 30 minutes of English Language Support.

Now this mandate is on top of teaching other grade level standards/objectives (depending on the grade level 200 standards well for each subject in Language ARts, Reading, Math, Social STudies, and Science) when there are only 184 days in the school year. All of which our students will be tested and compared with other students across the state and country to see how well their teacher has taught them. Before the big state's test, my district gives what they call benchmark assessments to make sure we are teaching all of the standards well. Not a problem, I want to be held accountable so that tax payers dollars can be put to good use. But the problem with the assessments is that they have skills that we haven't taught yet and the district argues that if we know what our students already know, then we can focus on skills that they need to improve. Hummm? Most of the time if the kids in my class are being tested, many of them are newly arrived to this country and don't do well since the test is all in English and they are still speaking Spanish.

Did I say that my district, being a program improvement district, has to have a core reading and math program as well as a supplemental reading and math program that is all computer data driven. I teach 34 kids and the district with the computer based reading and math supplemental programs wants me to have all of my students working on different learning goals since all of my students are all at different math and reading levels. All of my students have to score at 80% mastery on reading and math tests, and I have to offer remediation and interventions when they don't meet their goals nor master objectives that are paced through out the year. It can be a teachers nightmare if all of his students have failed that one objective and you have to keep up with the pacing guide and provide remediation and intervention as well as teach out of the core reading and math text books. Let me also quickly tell you about science and social studies. 4th graders have to do classroom demonstration in Life science, Earth Science, and Physical Science. They have to understand how a circuit works as well as understand the basic properties of matter. In social studies they have to learn how to find the absolute location of places using lines of latitude and longitude to CA history. Elementary teachers have to be practically experts in all of the subjects areas since we are multiple subject credential holders and that means that we are required to teach all subjects to our elementary students. Did I mention PE, ART, Music, and wow I almost forgot I have to plan for and teach health. They all have their long lists of standards that we must fit in during a school day. Remember kids are only in school for 6 hours. Realistically can any one tell me how would you fit in all of that learning in one day, and keep up with a pacing guide, and MAKE SURE ALL OF YOUR KIDS HAVE MASTERED THAT NEW SKILL BEFORE MOVING ON TO THE NEXT ONE.

I'll stop ranting now and just simply say that teachers are under the greatest pressure than ever before, and the sad reality is that 60% of us who enter the profession for the first time resign by their 3rd year because unlike being an Engineer, Doctor, Lawyer, or whatever the better paying and prestigious jobs our society highly regards, they come to realize that it TAKES A SPECIAL PERSON WHO IS:

Called to teach;
Able to manage a classroom well;
Motivate children or at least get them to buy into learning;
Patient with ADHD, Emotionally Disturbed, Homeless, Rich, Poor or Orphan kids;
Thick skinned when blamed for students not learning;
Work extra duty time without pay;
And sacrifice lunch and going to the bathroom when needed.

Teaching is very hard work. Teachers today have a lot on our platters. It's a profession where we have to be trained to do it well, and just because we all had a teacher and think we can all do the job just as equally well, the reality is that many can't, and the one's who's hearts aren't in it will instantly find out when their students are out of control because they see that you don't care about them

Most teacher bashers won't survive an hour in a classroom with a bunch of unruly 6 year olds or 16 year olds, and would wonder, wow how does the teacher deal with those kids on a daily basis. I've dealt with unruly, hard headed spoiled kids, who in some cases have no sense of right and wrong, and I sometimes ask myself, why have I stayed in this selfless profession for 15 years? Simply because it wasn't because I couldn't do anything else, or that I had low SAT scores and was left with just teaching to do, it was because I wanted to give back to my community and hope I would and could continue making a difference in the lives of kids who don't have a father at home. I TEACH BECAUSE I CARE; I TEACH NOT FOR THE MONEY BUT FOR THE REWARD OF SEEING A KID WHO COULDN'T READ THE WORD THE TO READING A COMPLETE SENTENCE AND SMILING BACK AT ME BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO MOTIVATE HIM TO LEARN.

.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by Kathleenh54

If you told your police, firemen, teachers and city services people that their salaries had to be tied to those increases, it wouldn't work. The only way it can work is for new people to pay more than longer-term residents. That is inherently unfair and a contributing factor in young families not able to buy homes.

It may be a nice thing to look forward to but meantime those city workers need to be paid somehow. If you ain't payin' it, your neighbor is.

However you look at the 'family homestead' preservation, it have had noble intentions at first but is being manipulated. If it costs seven-thousand dollars per child in public school, you have four kids in the system and your property taxes are seven hundred dollars, well then... you're freeloading.

Prop 13 is a disaster.

You raise several good points...

Prop 13 only sets a minimum level of funding for city services... Cities and Counties often ask voters to approve additional funding... specifically for additional police, fire fighters and for building and maintaining schools. Additional funding for school infrastructure frees-up money so that it can go to teachers and staff.

Prop 13 established a statewide minimum property tax base rate of 1% of assessed value and limits annual increases to 2%.

In my city, the effective tax rate is approaching 1.5%... in other words, my neighbors and I have consistently voted for higher property taxes. We taxed ourselves an additional 50% above Prop 13's threshold for the services we deem appropriate and beneficial.

Prop 13 only requires Cities and Counties to ASK for and RECEIVE voter approval to raise additional funding.

Perhaps, my view is too simplistic... but... I like the idea having a say on how services in my community are funded with my tax dollars.

Every measure for increased school funding in my city has been approved... police measures enjoy a 50% approval rate and firefighters receive approval about 80% of the time.

Many other states have enacted laws similar to Proposition 13 and several States, like Washington, will have versions of Prop 13 on up coming ballots.

I understand that school funding is a very complex subject...

Why are some districts richer than others or why are childless families required to educate the children of others...and what about families paying for public schools and at the same time their children attend private schools? My parents had 3 children and their neighbors had 9...

I certainly don't have the answers. Prop 13 ONLY came about because an overwhelming number of voters supported the grass roots initiative that created it.... in other words it came about only as a result of "Democracy in Action"

It is normal for each generation to feel that they alone bear the greatest burdens in making a life for themselves and their families... it is just normal human nature...

[Ultrarunner]

To antredd... Thank You for providing perspective to those of us not called to the teaching profession...

Many of us can only relate to our own school experiences... no matter how long ago that may be.

My father taught Public High School and many of his friends, by coincidence, were also teachers. Dad and his friends would often comment on how the teaching and the teaching profession continues to evolve...

I remember some of his "Older" colleagues commenting on how new teachers, teachers of today, are coddle, (their words... not mine), as compared to the days when they were simply thrust into the classroom to either "Sink or Swim" without benefit of any support system.

My own experiences of grades 5 through 8 consisted of one teacher per class and between 50 and 54 students. The only break any of my teachers ever received was during Friday's Physical Education class... at which time we were turned over to the PE teacher for 45 minutes...

I can understand where those of us "Older citizens" would have difficulty in identifying with many of the points you raised.

In case anyone wonders how a single teacher maintained order with 50 plus students... it was called corporal punishment... of which I was the beneficiary of more then once...

[greatbasinguide]

My wife just left for her day of teaching, 7:00 AM, her school runs from 9:30 to 3:30, I will have dinner ready for her around 6:30, this is our normal weekday schedule. While she eats, she will correct papers. On Sunday she will do lesson plans.

This was my schedule also, until this June when I retired. I retired, and she will retire soon also, why? NCLB, we cannot teach children what they need to learn, we must teach them to do well on a standardized test.

Oh, and the new kids in town, just in from Mexico, the Special Ed kids, they have to do as well as the kids who attended school from day one.

For me as a 6th grade teacher, my students are not assessed on Social Studies or Science, so, they get no Social Studies or Science, or art, or PE or recess.

When my first wife got her first nursing job she started at more than I made after 20 years of teaching.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by greatbasinguide

When my first wife got her first nursing job she started at more than I made after 20 years of teaching.

Nursing as a career is pretty amazing here in the SF Bay Area... exceptional job security, independence and respect from the community. Nursing is the only Professions that I am aware of in California without wage exemptions.

Regardless of pay, Nurses, not in Management positions, are mandated by law, (They have their own Labor Provision in the Law) to be paid for all hours worked, including overtime, holiday pay and double time after 12 hours. Doctors and Engineers, for example, do not have this protection from the Labor Board.

We have an insatiable demand for RN's that just can't be met... ageing populations, populations growth and new medical treatments and procedures add to the demand for Nurses that have forced Hospitals to recruit RN's from foreign lands.

The mandated lower patient to Nurse ratios, combined with the high number of Nurses gravitating to the administrative side of the profession also adds to the shortage.

Nursing truly is a calling that requires exceptional aptitude, excellent people skills, is often physically demanding and very technical in nature.

The SF Chronicle recently ran a story about the Bay Area Nursing shortage which pointed out the SF General STARTING pay for new hire RN's, fresh from Nursing School is over 100K per year.

I counseled a few exceptional young men and women to consider Nursing as a career... those that became RN's are very happy with their decision.

Several months ago I posted about a young newlywed couple ages 22 and 23 that bought their Bay Area home last year with no help from family or special programs... the wife is a RN and the Husband an Oakland Police Officer. Combined, they make almost 200k per year... they both had multiple job offers to choose from...

[Kathleenh54]

I have a friend who's an RN in CT. She is a school nurse by choice because if she went back to working in a hospital full-time, she'd be assigned to working with AIDs patients. Add that to the round-the-clock scheduling requirements and you have one tough job to fill.

Ultra, good for you for wanting to make your town the best it can be. I'm not sure how the tax increases for which you voted affect Prop 13 beneficiaries, but it's good to know that some citizens care about maintaining high standards.

[lorriem]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

To antredd... Thank You for providing perspective to those of us not called to the teaching profession...

Many of us can only relate to our own school experiences... no matter how long ago that may be.

My father taught Public High School and many of his friends, by coincidence, were also teachers. Dad and his friends would often comment on how the teaching and the teaching profession continues to evolve...

I remember some of his "Older" colleagues commenting on how new teachers, teachers of today, are coddle, (their words... not mine), as compared to the days when they were simply thrust into the classroom to either "Sink or Swim" without benefit of any support system.

My own experiences of grades 5 through 8 consisted of one teacher per class and between 50 and 54 students. The only break any of my teachers ever received was during Friday's Physical Education class... at which time we were turned over to the PE teacher for 45 minutes...

I can understand where those of us "Older citizens" would have difficulty in identifying with many of the points you raised.

In case anyone wonders how a single teacher maintained order with 50 plus students... it was called corporal punishment... of which I was the beneficiary of more then once...

My daughter is a mother of three. One in grade shool, One in middle school and one in high school.When you say one teacher for 50 students in my daughters grade school all the teacher's have a parent helper my daughter included is a helper.My daughter works with all the other students while the teacher grades papers or works with one student. My daughter also does yard duty and in that school teachers do not have to do that. My oldest grandson who pulls a 3.8 gpa had one teacher that no one could understand and if any student asked for that teacher to repeat what he said the teacher would say you should have listened to me the first time. I could go on with many more examples but I just had cataract surgery and must get off of this computer.

[lorriem]

Originally Posted by Kathleenh54

We moved from NY to Thousand Oaks, CA in 2001 for my husband's job. When he retired in '06, we moved to Ashland, Oregon. Our kids are 23 (married and living in Santa Ynez), 19 (with us for now going to community college but moving in with boyfriend in Malibu in '08), 15 (living with us and happily attending a private school in Medford, going to sophomore year).

The problem I have is that my kids' lives are in California and we are all the way up here in OR. The youngest kid is hoping to go to UCLA and live with one of her sisters after graduating. There isn't a whole lot in terms of job opportunities up here. So we are talking seriously about returning to CA, possibly to Arroyo Grande or Nipomo. I hope it doesn't totally wreck us financially. CA isn't a retiree-friendly state.

I miss California although we are not unhappy with Oregon. There's no place like California.

You are so right. We lived in Ca from 78 to 2004 for a job transfer and left our grandkids and daughter , son in law and friends behind. What were we thinking?If we weren't priced out of the market we would move back to our home state. Even though I wasn't born there I consider it my home.