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Old 04-11-2010, 11:33 PM
 
30,873 posts, read 36,815,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
I was kinda following you there 'til 'you got into the gratuitous "ideology" (like "left wing college professor crowd")! Surely you don't have a problem with higher education?
My point on the "left wing college professor" comment was to point out that even people on the liberal side of the political spectrum are agreeing with things that many conservatives have been saying for years. I'm not against higher education. But I am against the lopsidedness of it. The overwhelming majority of college professors are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, especially in the liberal arts. It seems to me universities are all about diversity, with the exception of political diversity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Understood re: "tax vs quality of services", but you also seem to casually ignore the impact of Prop. 13. Whatever its merits, are you suggesting all that lost revenue had no effect?
I was going to mention Prop 13, but this ground has been tred before and it seems no argument ever changes anyone's mind. But since you brought it up, here goes.... Even after Prop 13 passed, property tax revenues went up because of turnover (old people die or move out of state, & new people move in to pay the higher taxes). So the increase in revenue was always more than the 2% per year increase anyway. I work in the public sector and it was mentioned in a recent budget meeting that in normal years the property tax revenue increase is in the 4% to 7% range. And the state's revenues have been supplemented by higher taxes on other items over the years, especially the sales tax and income taxes, not to mention other property tax increases that have been passed by the voters. So, the idea that Prop 13 is the reason we're in such a mess is a big scam, in my opinion. Just go to the Tax Foundation's web site. You'll see that California has been in the top 10 states for the tax bite as a % of per capita income for most of the last 30 years. For the year 2008, California was 6th in taxes in both gross amount per capita and % of income per capita. But no matter how overwhelming the evidence, I doubt all the figures and statistics will convince those who think more tax increases are the main remedy to fix the state's budget problems.

The Tax Foundation - Facts & Figures Handbook: How Does Your State Compare?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
I do agree that conditions in SoCal heavily impact the rest of us (unchecked development and the demand for water also being among them). But while it's true that all politics is ultimately "local", still this is a huge & diverse state. And my point is that so much of the complaining about "illegals", "quality of life", etc. and wanting statewide "changes", seems to be coming from folks who apparently never venture any further than their local "neighborhood" and "their own kind".

For example, here in my neck o' the woods, which depends so heavily on agriculture, things would pretty much come to a screechin' halt without the presence of "immigrants" (legal or otherwise). And yet it's mostly the "native-born anglos" that you'll see around here on disability, welfare, food stamps, social services, etc.... often the very same ones who complain mightily about "illegals", but wouldn't be caught dead working out in those fields!
I have no doubt there is some hypocrisy tinged with racism in complaining about illegal immigration. It is typical that the group who has to heavily compete in the labor market with the immigrants will complain the most. That said, I think a lot of the welfare needs to be cut back for everyone, immigrant or not. We have too many people who just make a habit of having kids out of wedlock and then acting shocked when they can't make ends meet.

As far as agriculture coming to a screeching halt without illegal immigrants, I think that's a scam. Yes, 'business as usual' would come to a screeching halt. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It would mean those jobs would have to have to be automated and/or offer better pay and working conditions than they currently do. And we'd all have to pay more for produce (a price I'd be willing to pay, personally. I think it would be cheaper in the long run than subsidizing an illegal immigrant underclass).

I always find it an interesting contradiction how people who are sympathetic to illegal immigration love to say "Oh, what would we do without them and their low wages???!!!". Yet these same people are usually big advocates of raising the minimum wage in other industries (fast food, etc) and cry foul when the business community complains about it.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 04-11-2010 at 11:51 PM..
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Northridge, Los Angeles, CA
2,684 posts, read 7,360,698 times
Reputation: 2409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Sorry, CS. LOL! We're home now. But California will always be a tug for us. Gotta admit it.
You need to come back so you can be a part of the "foreign born" population. After all, you were born in the United States

California misses your tax doll...errr your presence
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:30 AM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,854 posts, read 10,421,040 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
My point on the "left wing college professor" comment was to point out that even people on the liberal side of the political spectrum are agreeing with things that many conservatives have been saying for years. I'm not against higher education. But I am against the lopsidedness of it. The overwhelming majority of college professors are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, especially in the liberal arts. It seems to me universities are all about diversity, with the exception of political diversity.



I was going to mention Prop 13, but this ground has been tred before and it seems no argument ever changes anyone's mind. But since you brought it up, here goes.... Even after Prop 13 passed, property tax revenues went up because of turnover (old people die or move out of state, & new people move in to pay the higher taxes). So the increase in revenue was always more than the 2% per year increase anyway. I work in the public sector and it was mentioned in a recent budget meeting that in normal years the property tax revenue increase is in the 4% to 7% range. And the state's revenues have been supplemented by higher taxes on other items over the years, especially the sales tax and income taxes, not to mention other property tax increases that have been passed by the voters. So, the idea that Prop 13 is the reason we're in such a mess is a big scam, in my opinion. Just go to the Tax Foundation's web site. You'll see that California has been in the top 10 states for the tax bite as a % of per capita income for most of the last 30 years. For the year 2008, California was 6th in taxes in both gross amount per capita and % of income per capita. But no matter how overwhelming the evidence, I doubt all the figures and statistics will convince those who think more tax increases are the main remedy to fix the state's budget problems.

The Tax Foundation - Facts & Figures Handbook: How Does Your State Compare?



I have no doubt there is some hypocrisy tinged with racism in complaining about illegal immigration. It is typical that the group who has to heavily compete in the labor market with the immigrants will complain the most. That said, I think a lot of the welfare needs to be cut back for everyone, immigrant or not. We have too many people who just make a habit of having kids out of wedlock and then acting shocked when they can't make ends meet.

As far as agriculture coming to a screeching halt without illegal immigrants, I think that's a scam. Yes, 'business as usual' would come to a screeching halt. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It would mean those jobs would have to have to be automated and/or offer better pay and working conditions than they currently do. And we'd all have to pay more for produce (a price I'd be willing to pay, personally. I think it would be cheaper in the long run than subsidizing an illegal immigrant underclass).

I always find it an interesting contradiction how people who are sympathetic to illegal immigration love to say "Oh, what would we do without them and their low wages???!!!". Yet these same people are usually big advocates of raising the minimum wage in other industries (fast food, etc) and cry foul when the business community complains about it.
Well, alot of folks talk a good game re: being "willing to pay more for groceries", etc., yet if that were so, then the higher-priced "organic foods" section wouldn't always look so lonely! But just in case, be sure to let Wal-Mart know how you feel about "prices" and "labor"!

Although your criticism about "low wages" vs "minimum wage" is a fair one, and like many of these issues, I suppose it just depends on "whose ox is being gored". Which is my basic take anyway, re: the core reasons for the state's current mess (and the problem's intractability).

BTW, what do you think of Meg Whitman, and her rather curious combination of wanting to spend more on both schools, and prisons!?

Last edited by mateo45; 04-12-2010 at 01:42 AM..
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,511,716 times
Reputation: 7477
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
My point on the "left wing college professor" comment was to point out that even people on the liberal side of the political spectrum are agreeing with things that many conservatives have been saying for years. I'm not against higher education. But I am against the lopsidedness of it. The overwhelming majority of college professors are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, especially in the liberal arts. It seems to me universities are all about diversity, with the exception of political diversity.
Business and economics departments aren't exactly bastions of liberalism.

As for the liberal arts and social sciences, generally you're correct esp. in California although there are exceptions ; my political science professor in college was somewhat conservative (she worshipped then-president Reagan) and I had an English professor in college who was an ultra-conservative Virginian (you expected to see a Confederate flag in his classroom). Otherwise I'd say their ideological spectrum went from moderate with liberal leanings on the right to Marxist on the left.
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,411 posts, read 10,341,247 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshadower View Post
You need to come back so you can be a part of the "foreign born" population. After all, you were born in the United States

California misses your tax doll...errr your presence
Yeah Curmudgeon, we need your money. Can't you spare a dime for your old state?
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:25 PM
 
30,873 posts, read 36,815,390 times
Reputation: 34457
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Well, alot of folks talk a good game re: being "willing to pay more for groceries", etc., yet if that were so, then the higher-priced "organic foods" section wouldn't always look so lonely! But just in case, be sure to let Wal-Mart know how you feel about "prices" and "labor"!!?
Well, clearly some people are willing. Otherwise, we wouldn't have places like Whole Foods. But, of course, there is some hypocrisy there. That said, if ALL the producers had to pay more for labor and couldn't cheat, it would be a fair playing field and we'd all have to grin and bear it. As things stand now, as long as there's a cheap option, it's really tempting to give in. And who knows? The more expensive option might have used illegal labor, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Although your criticism about "low wages" vs "minimum wage" is a fair one, and like many of these issues, I suppose it just depends on "whose ox is being gored". Which is my basic take anyway, re: the core reasons for the state's current mess (and the problem's intractability).
Thanks for conceding the point on the low wages. And yes, I agree, it is about whose ox is being gored. Fundamentally, it comes down to selfishness and greed. But unlike a lot of people, I think we're going to have to admit that the garden variety greed of millions of poor and middle class people is just as destructive as the greed of an elite few on Wall Street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
BTW, what do you think of Meg Whitman, and her rather curious combination of wanting to spend more on both schools, and prisons!?
I hadn't heard that. I'll take your word for it. As I said, I'm not all that confident in her ability to be able to get the tough changes through the legislature. I just think she's the lesser evil than Brown.

Spending more on schools sounds good. Until you realize the % of the state budget that goes toward education is huge. You really can't balance the budget without cutting schools. Prisons are a smaller portion of the budget. I sure do wish someone would stand up to the prision guard's union. Whitman probably won't. But we know Brown definitely won't.

I think someone with real leadership would have done something about how much we're spending on MediCal. MediCal should have been reformed decades ago. There has got to be a way to push for a more efficient health care delivery system. And I think the state would do well to campaign to reduce obesity as well. The state did a good job with pushing the anti-smoking agenda. It should do something similar with obesity.
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,364,888 times
Reputation: 29336
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
Yeah Curmudgeon, we need your money. Can't you spare a dime for your old state?
Trust me, they're gonna get plenty from us for our 2009 taxes come the 15th. But then that's it!

However, our children and grandchildren are paying their shares.
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,854 posts, read 10,421,040 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Business and economics departments aren't exactly bastions of liberalism.

As for the liberal arts and social sciences, generally you're correct esp. in California although there are exceptions ; my political science professor in college was somewhat conservative (she worshipped then-president Reagan) and I had an English professor in college who was an ultra-conservative Virginian (you expected to see a Confederate flag in his classroom). Otherwise I'd say their ideological spectrum went from moderate with liberal leanings on the right to Marxist on the left.
Dunno, but just this whole idea of dividing everything up into opposing "ideologies" (Liberal vs Conservative) seems sort of "suspect" to begin with. I can understand equal "representation" of things we have little choice over (i.e. race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, etc.). But "balancing" education according to one's choice of political affiliation and ideology, that's basically getting in the same realm as Stalinist "thought crimes".

Besides, Conservatives can't even decide what that means (religious, fiscal, social conservatism?), so how can anyone else? And saddled with all that frequently anti-intellectual ideology, how could a serious Conservative even properly perform their job.... as a Fundie anthropologist who believes man walked with dinosaurs, or a political science professor who considers Obama a "Marxist/Socialist", or even any socially conservative teacher, who happens to regard their gay students as "an abomination against nature"?!!
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:54 PM
 
Location: So Ca
26,636 posts, read 26,565,137 times
Reputation: 24658
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Spending more on schools sounds good. Until you realize the % of the state budget that goes toward education is huge. You really can't balance the budget without cutting schools. Prisons are a smaller portion of the budget.
Apparently we spend around the same amount, $15 billion, on higher public education as we spend on prisons. Not good. And spending on prisons is due to rise.
ACLU of Northern California : Prison vs. Education Spending Reveals California's Priorities
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Downtown Rancho Cordova, CA
491 posts, read 1,257,743 times
Reputation: 402
I do get irritated when I hear people who have never lived here bash California. As a native Texan, I've also lived in on the east coast and every place has it's pros and cons.

There are things I would change about CA if I was King, but there are also things I would change about every place I have lived.

None of the things in CA really bother me except for the cost of living. Politics? Who cares. There is nothing I can do about it and it doesn't affect me that much except for the paycuts that my wife and I got courtesy of the Governor.

This year I will stop caring about the public school situation when my youngest graduates from High School--so I will tune that situation out too. If someone mentions the problems with schools, my eyes will surely glaze over.

Now the cost of living--that's a problem. It may be why we move (along with the paycut thing) but it won't be because of anything else because I really do like CA.

Last edited by ElectroPlumber; 04-13-2010 at 10:56 PM..
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