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Old 05-03-2010, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,995 posts, read 11,640,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshadower View Post
I'll offer my limited points of view here.

I'm a Filipino American who grew up in a majority Hispanic neighborhood. The only time in my life when I came into contact with a lot of White American children was when I was in Elementary school (it was around 40% White, 40% Asian, 15% Hispanic, 5% other). The next time I would come across White people my age in extremely large numbers like that would be when I went to Berkeley.

If you can imagine, my life has been growing up around immigrants from all around the world. In fact, here in LA, people who were born in America in the 1990s was a great minority. The only people who you could have really considered "most American" here were the Blacks, since many of the "Whites" on the census were actually Armenians, Persians, and Arabs. Russian immigrants, both Jewish and non-Jewish, seemed to become American quite quickly in comparison to the Asian and Hispanic immigrants in this city. There's no undeniable fact about that, simply because European immigrants are physically able to look more "mainstream" American than us.

Asian parents are the way they are because they had to claw their way out of where they came from. Up until the 1990s (or 1970s for Japan), ALL Asian countries were the poorest places on the planet. I don't know if anyone was around during the 1960s, but places like Ghana or Nigeria were set to become the booming powers due to their large English (or other European) speaking populations, while places like South Korea and Taiwan were seen to continue to be the poorest places on the planet. I can only speak for myself, but my parents are from the poorest part of the Philippines. It took so much effort to not only gain a visa to come to the US (that was the easy part, since my grandfather fought in WW2 for the US), but also gain enough money to buy the plane ticket to come to the United States. Once in America, it took even more money to establish yourself here in a small 1 bedroom apartment in a country where you don't even know the culture, the language, or how things are done here.

If you've ever read anything on game theory, there is this idea called the sunk cost. Once you sink so much investment into something (like coming to America), you want to gain as much return as possible at all costs. It's like if you buy an expensive car; since you spent so much money on it, you want the maximum value possible out of it.

For Hispanic immigrants, there isn't as much sunk cost associated with coming to America since its so much more accessible than if you were Asian due to simple geographic proximity. Asian parents are the way they are because they want the maximum value on investment. Even if that means that they raise brain-dead zombies (and believe me, the critical thinking aspect really isn't there) because that's how they worked hard to come to the US.

If an airplane ticket cost 1/10 that it does now, believe me, the "model minority" stereotype would change so much.

When I was at Berkeley, it really showed who was more well rounded as people. There were some White kids who took it for granted, but many of the ones that were my friends were not only intelligent and hard working, but were also happier people. A lot of Asian kids (not all) that I knew lacked that perspective because their form of happiness was getting as much status as possible.

That's the society we live in though. It is what it is.
Great story, thanks for sharing it. It appears you have had some very interesting experiences as am immigrant. I think I agree about the sunk costs, and the need for hyperachievement to recoup them. It matches with my observation that second generation Asian-Americans are much more like the other European-American kids in motivation, values,etc. That striving energy of new immigrants is one of America's great engines,but I agree it may come as a cost to the individual's happiness. That must come from internal peace, not strictly status and achievement.
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Northridge, Los Angeles, CA
2,685 posts, read 6,339,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
Great story, thanks for sharing it. It appears you have had some very interesting experiences as am immigrant. I think I agree about the sunk costs, and the need for hyperachievement to recoup them. It matches with my observation that second generation Asian-Americans are much more like the other European-American kids in motivation, values,etc. That striving energy of new immigrants is one of America's great engines,but I agree it may come as a cost to the individual's happiness. That must come from internal peace, not strictly status and achievement.
Well, I'm not an immigrant. I was born and raised in Los Angeles. That's another issue that gets to me, but separate from this topic and not unique to any person (always being asked "where you are from". Not your fault though since this is the internet). I know when I have my kids, I won't be nearly as stringent as my parents were with me because it really serves no purpose.

The great thing about America is if you decide to become successful, you have to decide to work hard on your own. Many of the kids I knew that were forced to be successful in grade school, simply falter during college because they realize that they are free to do whatever they want. No one is forcing you to do anything. There's true upward mobility in the United States that I greatly appreciate, but unlike in a lot of other societies around the world, you are allowed to set the pace to which you want to be upwardly mobile.

The legal and illegal immigrants alike chose to come here. Since the US doesn't really have a refugee policy (in fact, per capita, the US has the least amount of refugees out of all industrialized nations), the immigrants come because they want to be here. If you get rid of the reason to come here (the pull factors), you'll get rid of the immigrants too.

I think that both sides can agree; the immigration system to the US needs to be reformed.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:17 PM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,787,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshadower View Post
I think that both sides can agree; the immigration system to the US needs to be reformed.
Yes it needs reform. The system has to be liberalized. Open the borders. The only people who should not be allowed to come in are convicted criminals from other countries.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
I am following this immigration issue in Arizona with interest and not a little amusement. Mayors Newsom and Villaraigosa have proposed boycotting Arizona. I am assuming they are pandering to their liberal and supposedly nonracist political bases. Yet, when I think of the Progressive Bastion of California, I get a decidedly racist feeling. Three thoughts:
1) Schools-Good and bad schools, and associated property values have mirrored racial divides for at least couple decades. When many minorities are in a school, scores are often lower, and upper middle class and higher parents fight like cats and dogs to get into the "better" schools with, news flash, white and sometimes asian kids of educated parents. Progressives are just as likely as conservatives to be guilty of this. Many of means are also increasingly choosing private schools (but not at the levels of the East).
2) White flight-Californians (and Americans as a whole) have been fleeing to the suburbs for decades to avoid the socially diverse, higher crime cities.
3) Racist Exports-For the last couple decades, racist groups have been springing up in rural, largely white areas of the West, chiefly Idaho, Montana, E. Oregon and Washington, etc. The racists are not so much home grown, but largely transplants from California. Most frighteningly, a good number are retired police officers from S. Cal.

So, it seems that some overt things like "profiling" in AZ connote racism, but the occult racist dynamics of the Golden State over decades do not. Feels like old-fashioned hypocrisy.

As for me, I confess to feelings of racism from time to time. I am a college-educated, world-traveled Liberal, I admire diversity, and I enjoy elements of many cultures. I am a staunch supporter of great public schools for all children. I am most comfortable, however, where crime is low, kids don't bring guns to school, nuclear families persist, and parents are engaged in their children's education and ethical development. These are usually white-dominated college towns. On a personal level, I am intellectually curious, but as a parent, want a safe, indeed, enriched environment for my child.

Like many, I observe that black-dominated area often have homicide and broken homes, hispanic-dominated areas have more litter and crime, rural white poor areas have more meth and DUIs, asian-dominated areas excel economically and have lower crime, but each of those areas have wonderful people. Where would I want to live? It is a difficult position to balance one's observations, intuitions, prefererences, distasteful as they may be to some, with the needs of one's family, and with the needs of the larger society.

My only point with this thread is to question whether are we in a good position to paint Arizona as a racist state and impy California is not? Or to impy that the white residents of a state are more racist than the minority groups? Or more broadly, should we be thowing these accusations around so easily?
++reps to you Fiddlehead. It's refreshing to see someone from the political left challenge the party line . We need more of that across the political spectrum.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:00 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Originally Posted by majoun View Post
In the end AZ will work its problems out just as CA did, in my opinion.
Uhhh, excuse me, but how have we "worked out" our problems??? With the lowest credit rating of all 50 states? With a $20 Billion budget deficit, despite being in the top 10 states for taxation? You've got a funny idea of what "working out" problems looks like

Seems to me our problems on illegal immigration as well as all the others are more acute now than ever.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 05-17-2010 at 05:19 AM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:07 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshadower View Post
Again, I repeat there is only so much that the reason a school is failing is because of the school itself. Why aren't the parents taking more responsibility of their kids? Why don't the kids themselves assume more responsibility in learning? Many Asian parents, mine included, were very active in the learning process because their mentality is why would we spend thousands and thousands of dollars coming to America just to be poor? It doesn't mean we were rich to begin with, but it means that we had to work extremely hard for what we had. A lot of the Asian people in the US are educated, but they don't come here with a lot of money. That's why they came to begin with.
Excellent point. When Caucasians make this same point, and when we point out that Latinos, by and large, do not emphasize the importance of education anywhere near the same degree, we are often accused of stereotyping, being racist, far right wing, greedy, etc.

We're always told that more money for the schools will solve all the problems. It's tiresome to say the least
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:10 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Some people think that the part of the success of Asian Americans is partly due to the demographic class from which they came. A lot of Asian American immigrants in the past 50 years came from the wealthier, more educated classes. It wasn't the guy picking rice outside Saigon that made it here in 1975. It was the family whose dad was a professor, a businessman, an engineer, a dentist and who had money (and brains), in other words the cream of the crop, who made it here. Compare them to the destitute who have migrated north over the past 50 years.
That's true in many cases. No nation wants low skilled immigrants. We all want the high skilled ones. The low skilled are a drain on the tax base.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:17 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
. As one example, the new-found demands for fiscal conservatism and deficit reduction of conservatives (both rebuplicans and Tea Party Activists) after a period of unbelievable fiscal imbalance and nonexistent oversight, has no credibility. Their indignation over deficits is right, but at the same time laughable.
Thanks for an excellent post. What really irks me about the Tea Party Crowd is the "Don't mess with my Medicare" kind of mindset. It shows you how entrenched the socialist mindset really is. I agree that deficits are horrible, but what I'm not hearing from them is what they're willing to give up so that the Federal Government can get its finances in balance. We are going to have to face the fact that Social Security & Medicare are going to have to be scaled back/reformed/made more efficient if we really don't want to be financially insolvent.

I think the Tea Partiers think the government can just get more efficient and that'll fix everything.

And Liberals seem to think ending the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan will fix everything.

They're both wrong. We're going to have to give stuff up if we want the government coffers to be in balance. And, as your post implies, we've mostly been trying to get the other guy to give up his stuff without us having to give up ours. (E.G. The poor want the rich to pay more taxes. The rich want the poor to get less handouts.)

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 05-17-2010 at 05:56 AM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:28 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Originally Posted by hsw View Post
And places like Cupertino were new, tract-home suburbs of '70s (with many well-educated engineers, nearly all legal immigrants) but are now Chinese ghettos w/immigrants of dubious education level and immigration legality; ironically, doubt many Indian or white or Jewish or Chinese engineers at Apple or Google would want to raise their kids in any ethnic ghetto, no matter how suburban or affluent, as it doesn't reflect demographic reality or Darwinism of top colleges or companies or industries
Cupertino a ghetto full of uneducated immigrants??? Say what? Somehow, I don't think this is a factual statement
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:31 AM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
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Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Here's a solution: give everyone who wants to come to the US a visa, then a green card. That makes all of them legal immigrants. Just by changing the semantics, the "problem" of illegal immigration is solved.
On the surface. But the real problem is we can't accommodate millions of uneducated, low skill people without the government going bust financially.
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