U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-07-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 12,372,501 times
Reputation: 3060

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
This only tells half a story. Could teachers and civil servants retire on 75% of their final year's salary at age 55 back in the 1960s and 1970s like many can today? I don't think so. (Not to mention police & firefirefighters who can retire at 50, with 90% of their last year's salary, which they spike upward with gobs of overtime....This just did not happen back in the 1970s to the same degree).

In the 1960s and 1970s there wasn't as much PC B.S. in the schools, either. Kids were expected to learn English, there was no special ESL all over the place like there is today. And we did not have the huge numbers of illegal immigrants to educate as we do today. And I'm sorry, but illegal immigrants just don't value education the way other immigrant groups do.

Umm... what?


California teachers are grossly underpaid... there's a reason why you don't see too many people wanting to be teachers. Never mind that the average teacher's salary in CA is the 2nd highest in the country... CA also costs the most $$$$ to live in so that's irrelevant. If they make good money then why did the Oakland School District go on strike last Thursday about all the cutbacks in education (and their salaries)?

Oakland teachers strike; few students attend school - ContraCostaTimes.com


There even strikes going on at schools in Redwood City, an hour away from Oakland, just to protest the unfair cuts in the Oakland school district. I doubt most Oakland public school teachers are considering retirement right now.


And what do you call "PC BS"? Actually addressing the issues that are present in CA? It's not just "illegal immigrants" who are ESL and since I'm willing to bet you think all illegal immigrants are Latino it's not just Latino's either. There are European immigrants in ESL programs. There are Asians in ESL programs. I'm not seeing where "PC BS" comes into play here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-07-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 12,372,501 times
Reputation: 3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
We are California... at least the people that live here and Prop 13 is the only protection Tax Paying Property Owners of this State have...

Prop 13 came about in response to an out of control legislature that REFUSED to rein-in spending AND because School Property Tax money no longer stayed in the district...

It was one thing to pay high property taxes for local schools... quite another to have the money leave the district... The Serrano v. Priest Supreme Court ruling forever changed the way public schools in CA are funded and yes... it did impact many districts with outstanding schools.

I am willing to give up nice goverment programs and services if it will help the dificit

12 people from my High School Class went into Law Enforcement... most retired shortly after turning age 50... one has a city of Oakland police pension of 180k plus medical... that's at least a million dollars every 5 years for one retirement.

I'm thankful everyday for Prop 13... even though I wasn't old enough to vote for it at the time it passed... I certainly remember family and neighbors dreading to open the Prop Tax Bills because the values were determined by the opinion of the county assessor

Several Assessors were sent to jail and one committed suicide... corruption and sweet heart deals for those of influence while the rest suffered.

Prop 13 has been the law since 1978 and has been upheld by the Supreme Court...

We wouldn't have a deficit if Prop 13 hadn't passed as evidenced by the $528 Billion in accumulated savings over the last 30 years...

And tell that to the kids stuck in the byproducts of prop 13... I'm sure they don't mind having their schools closed or seeing their music, physical education and art programs disappear. And yet there's always money for prisons...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 05:50 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,247,863 times
Reputation: 20392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
We wouldn't have a deficit if Prop 13 hadn't passed as evidenced by the $528 Billion in accumulated savings over the last 30 years...

And tell that to the kids stuck in the byproducts of prop 13... I'm sure they don't mind having their schools closed or seeing their music, physical education and art programs disappear. And yet there's always money for prisons...
No... we would all be individually broke if saddled with an additional 528 Billion in taxes...

CA legislature could have easily avoided Prop 13 simply by indexing the Home Owner's Exemption to inflation... done deal... but, they wouldn't do it. A $7500 Exemption meant something when typical homes cost 15k... no longer significant when homes were selling for 5 times that amount and much more.

My Father taught in Public High School... he left years ago... and it wasn't about pay or benefits... he left because schools were no longer about the kids...

The Superintendent of Oakland Public Schools is very well compensated... I know several credentialed teachers taking anything remotely related to their fields because they cannot find jobs... these are all 25 somethings and very motivated... doesn't sound like there is a lack of teachers were I am... Oakland CA.

The Tribune published a story that listed the per pupil expenditure of the Oakland School District near 15K per student... that's a lot of money

That said... there are lots of successful Public School Students... money isn't the answer and never was... if it was only about money... local private schools in Oakland wouldn't be graduating College Bound Students for less money.

The Serrano v. Priest Supreme Court ruling forever changed the way public schools in CA are funded and we are still feeling the impact.

California is not a low tax State... don't know how many different ways it can be said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:06 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,463,318 times
Reputation: 29071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
That said... there are lots of successful Public School Students... money isn't the answer and never was... if it was only about money... local private schools in Oakland wouldn't be graduating College Bound Students for less money.
Someone should have told that to Bill Honig before was ousted for fattening his/his wife's bank accounts at the expense of the students. For years all he could ever say was that more money was needed. He got it and there were no discenible results.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:13 PM
 
26,075 posts, read 28,473,598 times
Reputation: 24783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
Umm... what?


California teachers are grossly underpaid... there's a reason why you don't see too many people wanting to be teachers. Never mind that the average teacher's salary in CA is the 2nd highest in the country... CA also costs the most $$$$ to live in so that's irrelevant. If they make good money then why did the Oakland School District go on strike last Thursday about all the cutbacks in education (and their salaries)?

Oakland teachers strike; few students attend school - ContraCostaTimes.com


There even strikes going on at schools in Redwood City, an hour away from Oakland, just to protest the unfair cuts in the Oakland school district. I doubt most Oakland public school teachers are considering retirement right now.


And what do you call "PC BS"? Actually addressing the issues that are present in CA? It's not just "illegal immigrants" who are ESL and since I'm willing to bet you think all illegal immigrants are Latino it's not just Latino's either. There are European immigrants in ESL programs. There are Asians in ESL programs. I'm not seeing where "PC BS" comes into play here.
I dated a teacher who made 68K a year teaching in San Jose Unified. I don't think he was as the top step, either, since he'd only worked for them 1.5 years. 68K plus a generous pension and cheap health care is a good deal. Teachers go on strike because their unions stoke them with a sense of entitlement. It's human nature to think you're not making enough money. Do you know anyone who thinks they make too much?

I might add there's really no amount of money that will fix many of the problems teachers have to deal with. There's no amount of money that can fix the reality of huge numbers of unruly kids who come to school unprepared to learn.

By the way, I don't begrudge teachers their salaries so much....but collecting a generous pension at age 55 is just not sustainable in a world where people are living to near 80. Raise the retirement age and maybe they can pay teachers a little more.

I work in the public sector myself, so I know what I'm talking about. I couldn't get the pay and benefits for my skill set in the private sector. That is just reality. And it's the reality for most public sector workers.

Sure, I like my 14 paid holidays, 12 sick days, 3 personal days (in addition to regular vacation time), pension that will pay 75% of my final year's salary after 30 years service (as early as age 55), my $42 a month health insurance premiums with $10 office and $5 drug co-pays, dental & vision insurance etc. What I am describing here is not unique among California public sector employee benefits. But these benefit levels are not sustainble, as much as I wish they were. Police, firemen, & prison guards get even more generous pay & benefits than what I've described.

And we both know the truth....most of the kids in ESL programs throughout the state are Latino. And the immigrant group that performs most poorly in school is Latino as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:18 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,247,863 times
Reputation: 20392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Someone should have told that to Bill Honig before was ousted for fattening his/his wife's bank accounts at the expense of the students. For years all he could ever say was that more money was needed. He got it and there were no discernible results.
My point exactly... and that of my Public School Teacher Dad.

So much money went to overhead and facilities and so little actually made it into the classroom.

The CA lottery was sold to CA to fund the "Extras" of pubic education...

My City, Oakland has passed several special assessments for schools and kids... the work for the next parcel tax is already underway, even before the current one is voted

Statewide Property Tax is 1%... my effective Property Tax is nearly 1.5%... clearly 50% above Prop 13... Oakland has a long history of passing additional property tax measures...

Friends moved from Oakland to Castro Valley and realized an immediate reduction of Property Tax Rates... others moved from SF to unincorporated Contra Costa County and found the same...

Imagine... paying less taxes with equal or better service
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:24 PM
 
26,075 posts, read 28,473,598 times
Reputation: 24783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
We wouldn't have a deficit if Prop 13 hadn't passed as evidenced by the $528 Billion in accumulated savings over the last 30 years...
Sure we would. The money would have been spent on something else. You seem to think all the state's financial problems can be cured with more money. But the state of California is in the habit of spending $1.10 or $1.20 for every $1 it brings in, saving little or nothing for a rainy day.

Just as there are some people who live payday to payday even though they earn 6 figure salaries, there are some states that overspend despite high levels of taxation (And California's tax bite has been among the top 10 states for pretty much all of the last 30 years).

The financial problems California has are merely a symptom of a lack of discipline among the voters and the state's politicians alike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,920 posts, read 12,372,501 times
Reputation: 3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
No... we would all be individually broke if saddled with an additional 528 Billion in taxes...

CA legislature could have easily avoided Prop 13 simply by indexing the Home Owner's Exemption to inflation... done deal... but, they wouldn't do it. A $7500 Exemption meant something when typical homes cost 15k... no longer significant when homes were selling for 5 times that amount and much more.

My Father taught in Public High School... he left years ago... and it wasn't about pay or benefits... he left because schools were no longer about the kids...

The Superintendent of Oakland Public Schools is very well compensated... I know several credentialed teachers taking anything remotely related to their fields because they cannot find jobs... these are all 25 somethings and very motivated... doesn't sound like there is a lack of teachers were I am... Oakland CA.

The Tribune published a story that listed the per pupil expenditure of the Oakland School District near 15K per student... that's a lot of money

That said... there are lots of successful Public School Students... money isn't the answer and never was... if it was only about money... local private schools in Oakland wouldn't be graduating College Bound Students for less money.

The Serrano v. Priest Supreme Court ruling forever changed the way public schools in CA are funded and we are still feeling the impact.

California is not a low tax State... don't know how many different ways it can be said.

My sister would fall into that category... she's trying to teach here in Oakland but she's only found sub work (and only a little of that).

And I didn't say there was a lack of teachers... I said not too many people would want to be teachers based on the salary alone.


And I didn't say CA was a low tax state. That said, we're not paying enough taxes to even sustain the way things are now. Either the taxes get raised to the point that we can afford what's in front of us or we cut the **** out of services enough that we can afford to pay for a piece of **** public schooling system/PD/etc. I'd rather pick the former... if people pick the latter then what's the point of paying taxes at all? What would be the point of living in CA as opposed to the other 49 states that can actually balance their budget without completely ****ing over the citizens?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:39 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,367 posts, read 8,583,918 times
Reputation: 5919
Don't mean to sound too cavalier about it, but if taxes and the cost of living were substantially increased, let alone to compensate for this loss of over half a trillion dollars in lost revenue due to Prop. 13, so what if some folks can't afford it? Where is it written that everyone should be able to afford to live in California, anymore than we should all be able to afford "waterfront property"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2010, 06:55 PM
 
26,589 posts, read 52,247,863 times
Reputation: 20392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava View Post
My sister would fall into that category... she's trying to teach here in Oakland but she's only found sub work (and only a little of that).

And I didn't say there was a lack of teachers... I said not too many people would want to be teachers based on the salary alone.


And I didn't say CA was a low tax state. That said, we're not paying enough taxes to even sustain the way things are now. Either the taxes get raised to the point that we can afford what's in front of us or we cut the **** out of services enough that we can afford to pay for a piece of **** public schooling system/PD/etc. I'd rather pick the former... if people pick the latter then what's the point of paying taxes at all? What would be the point of living in CA as opposed to the other 49 states that can actually balance their budget without completely ****ing over the citizens?
Plenty of people have made the decision by voting with their feet and relocating.... some couldn't be happier and others regret leaving CA the rest of their lives...

I went to school in Oakland and we always had at least 40 students in a classroom with one teacher... the building was old, but we took a lot of pride... the principal personally picked up trash at recess and soon had all the kids picking up trash...

He made a deal with the students... we would get new sports equipment... mostly basketballs... if he didn't have to budget money to pick-up litter and paint over graffiti...

I was in my High School friends wedding... they were High School Sweethearts and both are Oakland Teachers... they are doing well, have a nice home in the Hills with a beautiful family... they also are not complaining about their retirement program.

Then there are others of us... through mergers and acquisitions in the private sector that basically have no retirements... when your company changes ownership every few years and "Benefits" change... it's like continually starting over...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top