California poised to ban plastic bags (San Francisco: live, law, stores)

[BlackShoe]

Originally Posted by Clarks

Bolsheviks? eco freak stooges?

Okay; progressives, liberals, the far left, socialists, statists, environmental extremists, greens, etc., whichever definition you prefer. What it means is the ever increasing power of government to control and restrict its citizens and the eroding of freedoms we once enjoyed. Many of us are alarmed by this trend (can you say Tea party?) and are revolting against it. While such things as plastic bags and light bulbs may seem trivial, it is seen as the every increasing power of the government.

[Voyageur]

Originally Posted by Clarks

Bolsheviks? eco freak stooges?

Levelheaded feller ain't he.

And he apparently thinks Lenin and Stalin were all about the environment...

[Voyageur]

Originally Posted by BlackShoe

Okay; progressives, liberals, the far left, socialists, statists, environmental extremists, greens, etc., whichever definition you prefer. What it means is the ever increasing power of government to control and restrict its citizens and the eroding of freedoms we once enjoyed.

Indeed, the freedom of grocery stores to bag groceries with plastic grocery bags! That's how the Red Terror began, right?!

Tell us, do you similarly oppose the Clean Water Act because it erodes your freedom? It does, after all. So do laws that have improved the air quality level in many places, including southern California, over the past few years. And is it increasing? Well, duh. There were only 50,000 Californians at statehood. There was just a touch over a million in 1890. There were 10 million in 1950. More people means more use of shared resources such as land, air and water. Compounding the issue is that while the population has grown, the per capita consumption of those resources and well as the per capita production of air, water and land waste has also increased. It only stands to reason increased regulation of those resources and practices that impact them will result.

Many of us are alarmed by this trend (can you say Tea party?) and are revolting against it. While such things as plastic bags and light bulbs may seem trivial, it is seen as the every increasing power of the government.

Well, welcome to a society that doesn't want to pretend it's 1850, 1890 or 1950. Do you think it should be lawful to just dump all your trash down a canyon somewhere? You know, that used to be legal. How about hydraulic mining, that devastated water downstream? That used to be legal. How about we eliminate all emissions controls? Emissions regulation doesn't date back to the founding of this state or this country, you know. All those things restrict your ability to act in certain ways. Do you oppose, on principal, such types of laws?

If you do, then have at it. Good luck on getting the Tea Party to roll them back.

And if you don't oppose them, then perhaps you'd explain how a law like the Clean Water Act, which is far more sweeping and impactful than a law which merely compels grocery stores to stop using plastic bags, is acceptable while the latter is not?

[wburg]

Originally Posted by BlackShoe

More control by the Bolsheviks running things and their eco freak stooges. Up until now, did two things with plastic bags; saved and recycled them by returning them to the stores, and used them for cleaning my cats litter box. Not now, will now save and hoard them for the cat, and perhaps stick a few in my back pocket when I shop and insist on using them. Along the same topic, refuse to use the new supposedly long life super duper light bulbs. Have stocked up on the good old fashioned style, and when they are finally banned, will buy several hundred of them, enough to last for many years.

Hopefully you're enjoying your good old-fashioned higher electric bills! CF bulbs use about a quarter the electricity of conventional bulbs, and yes, they do last longer. I use a dozen or so at home and replace maybe one or two bulbs a year. LED bulbs last even longer and use even less power!

Plastic bags at the store are in no way "free": the store buys them, and passes the price along to you, the consumer. By bringing your own bags, you reduce the store's expenses for shopping bags and thus in the long run save yourself money. Taking "free" bags doesn't save you money, because you're paying for them anyhow. Charging a couple token pennies for a shopping bag at least makes people mindful that even a throwaway shopping bag isn't "free." Many stores (such as IKEA) already charge a nickel for their bags, because they want their customers to use fewer bags, or buy a reusable one.

So if you need trash bags, my suggestion is to take personal responsibility and BUY SOME TRASH BAGS. You're paying for them anyhow!

[Clarks]

kay; progressives, liberals, the far left, socialists, statists, environmental extremists, greens, etc., whichever definition you prefer. What it means is the ever increasing power of government to control and restrict its citizens and the eroding of freedoms we once enjoyed. Many of us are alarmed by this trend (can you say Tea party?) and are revolting against it. While such things as plastic bags and light bulbs may seem trivial, it is seen as the every increasing power of the government.

You might be right, after all, the prior President increased the power of the Federal Government at the expense of states more than any President in history.

progressives, liberals, the far left, socialists, statists, environmental extremists, greens, etc.,

I think, under etc. You left out, cannibals, neanderthals, Knights Templars, Cathars, Celts (The Celts!!), Atlanteans, the lost tribes of Israel, nihilists, anarchists, do-nothings, know nothings, copperheads, the Hittites, oh gosh, there must be more.

statists

There are three ways humans govern themselves, according to Jared Diamond in his book, Guns Germs and Steel, Bands, Chieftainships and States, like it or not, unless you live in the back woods of the Amazon or New Guinea, you are a statist.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Clarks

I think, under etc. You left out, cannibals, neanderthals, Knights Templars, Cathars, Celts (The Celts!!), Atlanteans, the lost tribes of Israel, nihilists, anarchists, do-nothings, know nothings, copperheads, the Hittites, oh gosh, there must be more.

Don't forget the Artesians. They're an underground force to be dealt with!

[Dannan]

A choice was eliminated. I do not live in CA but I have some job leads there. Paper, like plastic had their advantages and disadvantages. Plastic bags had more advantages and that is why they were more widely used. The downside is not disposing of them properly, no different than other things when they are no longer useful.

[Clarks]

The downside is not disposing of them properly, no different than other things when they are no longer useful.

There really is no disposing of them, like herpes, plastic bags are with us forever.

If "paper or plastic" made you decide not to move to California, ????

[wburg]

Hydraulic mining had "more advantages" too, it was cheap and easy to blast water at a hill and pan out the gold, but it had consequences downstream that cost other people money. Plastic bags' advantage is that they're really cheap to make, but recycling them costs more than the benefit and only a tiny percentage get recycled. Thus, the actual cost gets passed along to other people, like the real cost of hydraulic mining.

We no longer live in a world where we can simply ignore the effects of our actions because it's convenient and easy to do so. It comes back to bite us.

[chacho_keva]

Originally Posted by bhcompy

Not to be a downer, but you know that recycling plastic bags costs more to the environment than it does to just throw them away?

What exactly are you basing this assumption on? Please enlighten us by qualifying your statement.