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I think that hobbesdj and Cart24 are simply responding to the Canadian mythology that it is ALWAYS better for a black person in Canada than in the U.S. Canadians are basically brought up to be proud of (and even feel superior about) how Canada treated black people better than the U.S. historically.
It is almost a national Canadian character trait to negatively and self-righteously point the finger at the U.S. for slavery, ghetto riots, the Ku Klux Klan, segregation, Rodney King, etc.
I also know quite a few black residents of Canada who have been told to their faces by white Canadians that they are sooo lucky to be living in Canada and not the States.
Interestingly enough, like Cart24 a lot of them eventually moved to the States and are quite happy with their lives there.
On the other hand, several friends and neighbours of mine are black residents of Canada and are quite happy with their lives here as well.
The moral of the story is be careful with absolutes like "Canada is 100%, absolutely, positively, assuredly, unquestionably a better place for black people than the United States is!"
Sigh, we're comparing apples and oranges here. The African Immigrants came to that Canada were mostly Refugees, while the ones that came to America were ( and still are) highly skilled and already successful in their respected country. The new wave of African Immigrants that are now coming to Canada are more highly skilled, so maybe the stats will change in a couple of years.
It's not fair to compare the black immigrant population of Canada (which is 90% of all blacks) compare to the US (which is only 5-10% of blacks). A better comparison would be blacks in Canada to blacks in The UK, but that a different topic.
Sigh, we're comparing apples and oranges here. The African Immigrants came to that Canada were mostly Refugees, while the ones that came to America were ( and still are) highly skilled and already successful in their respected country. The new wave of African Immigrants that are now coming to Canada are more highly skilled, so maybe the stats will change in a couple of years.
It's not fair to compare the black immigrant population of Canada (which is 90% of all blacks) compare to the US (which is only 5-10% of blacks). A better comparison would be blacks in Canada to blacks in The UK, but that a different topic.
Well, the main comparison being made here is between blacks who immigrated to the U.S. around the 1960s and blacks who immigrated to Canada around the same time.
I am not sure about the U.S. (and it would be interesting to see stats on educational levels of black immigrants to the U.S.), but in Canada for sure in the 1960s and 1970s most black immigrants would have been Jamaicans in Ontario and Haitians in Quebec. Most of these people would not have been refugees but immigrant workers. Based on the people I have known from this period their skill levels varied widely, from unskilled labourers all the way up to doctors and professors. I would be happy to be proven wrong but I would be surprised if the composition of black immigration to the U.S. would have been very different during that period.
Canada did not really accept African-origin refugees in large numbers until the late 1970s anyway, and even today only 10-15% of all the people Canada lets in the country annually are refugees. Obviously, they aren't all of African origin.
As well, although the U.S. is not as welcoming of refugees as Canada is, it does have an illegal immigration phenomenon and one only has to visit NYC to see that there are many, many Africans living in the U.S. illegally trying to get ahead.
I sincerely doubt that the black immigration in the U.S. is "hand-picked" when compared to Canada's. In both countries, it is more a highly-varied cross-section of humanity that you will find in the black community, as with any other group.
Acajack, I know all about Black Immigration to Canada, My Parents immigrated here from Barbados and I also have family that immigrated to the US and the UK.
I was specifically taking about African Immigration and not all blacks in general because hobbesdj kept on mentioning it. America do attract more highly skilled Africans than Canada. Also I shouldn't of said Refugees, it was a bad choice of words.
K, so this conversation is getting carried away. As a previous poster mentioned, black immigrants make up the majority of the blacks here. We have lots of refugees but not only refugees, a very large percentage of the doctors in Canada are from South Africa but originate from places like Ghana, Uganda, ect. We have not been established here for long, so please don't compare us to those black Americans who were born into wealth and can afford to reside in the prosperous regions of Maryland, North Carolina, and places as such.
Now; compare that with the Somalians and Sudanese that we have here, and obviously things are not going to be the same. Coming with nothing but the desire to give their children a chance... good parental instincts. Now also when they come here, they go to schools which are equally as funded regardless of location. What would you pick. So don't come here saying we're not talking about African immigrants..... slavery-descendant blacks here are stretched far and thin. I don't dislike America, it's a great country if you can afford it which I can, and I wouldn't hesitate to move there. But the original poster is asking about discrimination, and that's what my posts have been in regards to. Now of course America isn't what it used to be in the 60's, but don't be naive. Segregation is alive and well with Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, Newark, Memphis, and New Orleans being some of the most segregated cities in the country. What do they all have in common?
As an immigrant which is what the OP would be, I suggest Canada to start at least. The linguistics of being black in America may not affect all, but they do affect a significant portion their population. That being said, not everyone here is all black-loving.... people aren't going to go out of their way to be your best friend. But if you show them some respect, they will return the deed. I don't understand how these two other blacks cannot understand the simplicity of my posts. The blacks who come here are here to improve the lives of their children, blacks in America..... well that's a different story. I know they are not all under the same group, but in terms of discrimination do you think a racist is gonna care. "Before I call you the n-word, are you an immigrant?" Like come on guys, it's a simple question.
Did you not read our posts? We were specifically comparing black IMMIGRANTS in the US to other blacks immigrants in Canada. We excluded native born African Americans from the discussion.
There are major racial issues in the US and Canada, with a racial history in the US that nobody in their right mind would be proud of. At the same time you have not answered our simple question, why is it that black IMMIGRANTS in the US outperform their counterparts in Canada? Why can the black immigrant community earn above or at the national income level in the US with only 16% under the poverty line while in Canada they earn on average $7000 under the median income level and 1/3rd live under the poverty line (I posted the links earlier to confirm these studies)
If discrimination is not alive and well in Canada, why cant we get ahead and equal the white community? Once again I am not denying racial issues in the US, but why can us new black immigrants leave Canada and become successful in the US when we are supposedly welcomed by people that think of us as "******S".
Also as far as education disparity that you mentioned does not exist in Canada, but is alive and well in the US. How can you explain this study by the Toronto School Board in 2009 (http://www.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments/a...edFindings.pdf)
Look at the performance gap, by race:
Then by income level:
Im sorry but Toronto looks VERY similar to any major city in the US there, explain to me why this education equality is not translating into results in Canada's largest city.
There are major racial issues in the US and Canada, with a racial history in the US that nobody in their right mind would be proud of. At the same time you have not answered our simple question, why is it that black IMMIGRANTS in the US outperform their counterparts in Canada? Why can the black immigrant community earn above or at the national income level in the US with only 16% under the poverty line while in Canada they earn on average $7000 under the median income level and 1/3rd live under the poverty line (I posted the links earlier to confirm these studies)
I'm anything but involved with those questions, but in the links you posted, only about 20% of US African-born immigrants (2000 Census you linked) are 25 and under, while in Canada it's 49% (Statcan study you linked). Young people make less money, so that would explain part of the difference.
The US numbers are for "people born in Africa", while the Statcan one is for "people of African origin", so it's not really true that the Statcan numbers apply to African immigrants only. 8% of the people included in the US study are 15 and under, while it's 32% in the Statcan study. This points to a very different demographic fabric that may or may not be linked to discrimination.
I'm anything but involved with those questions, but in the links you posted, only about 20% of US African-born immigrants (2000 Census you linked) are 25 and under, while in Canada it's 49% (Statcan study you linked). Young people make less money, so that would explain part of the difference.
The US numbers are for "people born in Africa", while the Statcan one is for "people of African origin", so it's not really true that the Statcan numbers apply to African immigrants only. 8% of the people included in the US study are 15 and under, while it's 32% in the Statcan study. This points to a very different demographic fabric that may or may not be linked to discrimination.
Excellent points. The problem is that even if you exclude the 15-24 age bracket you can still see a wide gap between the Canadian average and the those of African origin (pg. 15 of this study: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-621-x/89-621-x2007010-eng.pdf)
And one more correction, the US study I linked also includes those born in the West Indies as well. The reason why I did not link a study including Native born African-Americans is because the comparison would not be fair based on a much more established native black community in the US in comparison to Canada.
Of course, it's easier blaming racism and discrimination than looking at the roots of the problem. I ask you to look at how many of the Somalian and Sudanese migrants here would fare in the US economy? Would them magically going from Ontario into Michigan open a magic ceiling of opportunities? Come on man, I don't know what point you are trying to prove. The blacks here seem to be doing fine, working minimum wage here you can send enough back to Africa to ensure your relatives lives a decent life. If we compared black white collar workers here and in the US they would live similar lives, black labourers here and there would also have similar lives. We just happen to have more of the latter. Go whine somewhere else.
Of course, it's easier blaming racism and discrimination than looking at the roots of the problem. I ask you to look at how many of the Somalian and Sudanese migrants here would fare in the US economy? Would them magically going from Ontario into Michigan open a magic ceiling of opportunities? Come on man, I don't know what point you are trying to prove. The blacks here seem to be doing fine, working minimum wage here you can send enough back to Africa to ensure your relatives lives a decent life. If we compared black white collar workers here and in the US they would live similar lives, black labourers here and there would also have similar lives. We just happen to have more of the latter. Go whine somewhere else.
Dude, i dont know why you are getting so emotional about this, you should really calm down. The point I am making is that you are talking a bunch of crap when it comes to blacks being treated better in Canada than the US. Why wont you address my points above?
The Canadian government accepts and funds 7,300 refugees each year, the US 70,000. Since the US population is aprox. 10 times that of Canada, per capita the number is about equal. Any more myths you would like me to dispell? And also please note that neither the US or Canada are doing anything above and beyond here, many countries around the globe have done the same.
Have you ever thought that the reason why Canada has more blacks (and immigrants in general) in non professional positions is because immigrants education and foreign work experience is not as accepted as in the US? That is a fact. I will take the US racism any day if they continue to accept foreign education and experience over Canada's "accepting" policy and not respecting foreign credentials. I am sorry but that is more racist to me.
Also why skim over the Toronto School Board performance statistics also? The majority of the black community in Toronto are Caribbean born of of Caribbean decent , with no language barrier to speak of.
The blacks here in the US seem to be doing fine to me as well, ESPECIALLY black immigrants who out perform whites in many major cities. That does not exist in Canada and that is statistically proven. I dont care where you choose to live, but do not speak like you are some authority on the plight of the black community in the US when you have spent a total of 0 years living here.
Finally I find it strange that earlier you were trumpeting all the social issues in the US, while saying that Canada is the best country on earth to be a minority. Then in this most recent post, you said that if you compare blacks in each income and professional group it would be the same. SO which one is it? A lower standard of living or equal? At the very least be consistent.
Have a nice day and enjoy the prosperous black community in Canada!
Last edited by Cart24; 06-22-2010 at 07:42 PM..
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