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Old 10-20-2014, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,146,540 times
Reputation: 3738

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^^

Ed - maybe i'm missing something here but on the whole I highly doubt Toronto is anymore or any less stuck in neutral when it comes to matters of race relations in Canada or the U.S.. I've actually posted where I think we are doing things right in Toronto and Ontario, particularly with public policy on racial matters in Ontario and certain organizations that are making a lot of progress. Heck, look at the representation of the student population on the TDSB website. Are there still issues - of course there are and clearly I have eluded to those issues not just in words but actions - but man could you be a bit more balanced in your posts lol like seriously. One way or the other it seems like Toronto is the only city on your radar in Canada/U.S discussion on racial issues whereby the city seems to demonstrably have more issues that others on the whole.. I mean c'mon in spite of issues that are there, clearly the city isn't alone and is far from being stuck in neutral.. One thing I will say is, you are going to get a group of individuals who are going to strongly backlash against the rather nouveau hyper diversity of it - that to me makes sense because we are still gaining our footing in that regard. One way or the other by 2033 - Toronto will be 67percent visible minority.. This means there WILL be more representation of the various groups in the city of all stripes. The glass is more half full than half empty here..

As for Olivia Chow... As I've said before and I have no skin in the game not wanting her to win and you know that.. As a matter of fact she has been one of the biggest supporters of gays in our city but you clearly haven't watched her in the debates.. Can you seriously say she has done a better job than John Tory.. She has been VERY lacklustre and her responses to questions have been abysmal to say the least. She has become too negative instead of sticking with the issues! Remember, she was polling waaaay ahead of Tory from Feb to July. She didn't lose support because people just decided over the last few months that we aren't ready for an Asian Mayor or that a large swath of Torontonians suddenly decided to become racist - they decided that we aren't happy with the Olivia we saw in the debates and her performance in those debates- plain and simple.. She has herself to blame and I think you would get a consensus of opinion about that not just from Whites in the city, but from people of all backgrounds. The biggest supporters of the white DUDS in this election seems to be from vis min groups btw - if you watched the crowds in the debates you'd see that.

Last edited by fusion2; 10-20-2014 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:12 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
^^

Ed - maybe i'm missing something here but on the whole I highly doubt Toronto is anymore or any less stuck in neutral when it comes to matters of race relations in Canada or the U.S.. I've actually posted where I think we are doing things right in Toronto and Ontario, particularly with public policy on racial matters in Ontario and certain organizations that are making a lot of progress. Heck, look at the representation of the student population on the TDSB website. Are there still issues - of course there are and clearly I have eluded to those issues not just in words but actions - but man could you be a bit more balanced in your posts lol like seriously. One way or the other it seems like Toronto is the only city on your radar in Canada/U.S discussion on racial issues whereby the city seems to demonstrably have more issues that others on the whole.. I mean c'mon in spite of issues that are there, clearly the city isn't alone and is far from being stuck in neutral.. One thing I will say is, you are going to get a group of individuals who are going to strongly backlash against the rather nouveau hyper diversity of it - that to me makes sense because we are still gaining our footing in that regard. One way or the other by 2033 - Toronto will be 67percent visible minority.. This means there WILL be more representation of the various groups in the city of all stripes. The glass is more half full than half empty here..

As for Olivia Chow... As I've said before and I have no skin in the game not wanting her to win and you know that.. As a matter of fact she has been one of the biggest supporters of gays in our city but you clearly haven't watched her in the debates.. Can you seriously say she has done a better job than John Tory.. She has been VERY lacklustre and her responses to questions have been abysmal to say the least. She has become too negative instead of sticking with the issues! Remember, she was polling waaaay ahead of Tory from Feb to July. She didn't lose support because people just decided over the last few months that we aren't ready for an Asian Mayor or that a large swath of Torontonians suddenly decided to become racist - they decided that we aren't happy with the Olivia we saw in the debates and her performance in those debates- plain and simple.. She has herself to blame and I think you would get a consensus of opinion about that not just from Whites in the city, but from people of all backgrounds. The biggest supporters of the white DUDS in this election seems to be from vis min groups btw - if you watched the crowds in the debates you'd see that.
I am sorry but that is a cop out. Why should we have to wait until Toronto is even more diverse to see any movement or any traction? What breakthroughs have you noted out of curiosity, other than anecdotal observations about your company.

Olivia Chow is not a stellar candidate, but have you seen who she is running against? One out of the closet racist, who throws around as many racial slurs as his brother in private. Then Tory, who stood up in front of a group in Jane n Finch and said flat out that White Privilege does not exist. Are there two any more racially obtuse people on the planet? They are representing the city that says "diversity is our strength". Do you not even remotely find something completely wrong about that?

As far as the personal bullsh%t you noted above, stick to the topic at hand. You have the personal choice to respond to me or not. If you believe I have nothing of value to add to a racial discussion on Canada, then please feel free to ignore me.
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Old 10-21-2014, 02:45 AM
 
4,035 posts, read 3,856,036 times
Reputation: 5315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale the male View Post
I know this has been asked millions of times but I'll try and make this thread more unique.

It seems that people automatically equate non racist as white people who are very accepting and tolerant of other races and cultures.
(so called anti racists often engage in double standards is what it seems, as I've pointed out before.)

Do Canadians often use terms like African American?

Or if Canadians are less racist than Americans, is it simply a matter of "not seeing color"?
The buzz among First Nations peoples is that Canada is more racist, both in public policy and in personal relations.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:11 AM
 
342 posts, read 395,410 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
^^

Ed - maybe i'm missing something here but on the whole I highly doubt Toronto is anymore or any less stuck in neutral when it comes to matters of race relations in Canada or the U.S..
Where did you live in the U.S.? Again? Oh yeah you haven't.

When were you a racial minority? You aren't.

So how come it seems that black people who have actually lived in both countries always say the same thing? Why do they always say what Edward is saying? And this includes black people from both countries who actually set out with a bias for Canada and initially believed wholeheartedly Canada was better in this regard yet one after another and make total 180 degree turnarounds once they have actually experienced living in both countries.

^ Can you answer why this is?

Because in my mind, at a certain point you have to ask yourself why this is and start examining the possibilities. Maybe they are conspiring? But far more likely all these unrelated people are telling the truth, no?
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:33 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,068 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
Where did you live in the U.S.? Again? Oh yeah you haven't.

When were you a racial minority? You aren't.
Werent you an expert in the topic of race relations in DC and Vancouver? Oh yeah ... you were totally mis-informed.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:42 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,068 times
Reputation: 1027
All this reminds me of a nice scene from the Oscar winning documentary: Bowling for Columbine, where the film-maker Michael Moore talks to a black guy from Detroit visiting Windsor ....

Then we spot Moore back at the midway at the spot in Windsor, and there he is talking to a black man, from Detroit, visiting for the night. Another black man says, “People over here are a little more open-minded, a little more welcoming.” Later he adds, “Segregation is more intensified over there.”
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:56 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
All this reminds me of a nice scene from the Oscar winning documentary: Bowling for Columbine, where the film-maker Michael Moore talks to a black guy from Detroit visiting Windsor ....

Then we spot Moore back at the midway at the spot in Windsor, and there he is talking to a black man, from Detroit, visiting for the night. Another black man says, “People over here are a little more open-minded, a little more welcoming.” Later he adds, “Segregation is more intensified over there.”
No offense, but that is kind of a terrible example. Detroit is 83% Black, Windsor is 4% Black. How could anyone compare segregation between the two cities when the demographics could not be any less similar.

Windsor may be a great place, I don't know much about it, but that gentleman was speaking about a place he is visiting not living. I have great experiences visiting everywhere, but finding a job, securing housing, navigating the political system is a much different experience than crossing over the border and having a beer at the local bar and everyone is your best friend.

Plus Michael Moore is an idiot. I study health policy for a living and his film "Sicko" was one of the most intellectually lazy and inaccurate documentaries I have ever watched. I lost all respect for the man after that and I consider myself a Liberal just like Mr. Moore.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:05 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,068 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
No offense, but that is kind of a terrible example. Detroit is 83% Black, Windsor is 4% Black. How could anyone compare segregation between the two cities when the demographics could not be any less similar.

Windsor may be a great place, I don't know much about it, but that gentleman was speaking about a place he is visiting not living. I have great experiences visiting everywhere, but finding a job, securing housing, navigating the political system is a much different experience than crossing over the border and having a beer at the local bar and everyone is your best friend.
You are right ... it is a bad example. I thought that a thread that is full of people's personal theories and youtube videos about race relations might need some Michael Moore-isms.

But I also think that there is some truth to this. Detroit wasn't always 83% Black and there are still super-rich areas in around Detroit that are predominantly White. But that's a totally different discussion.

Last edited by sandman249; 10-21-2014 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:15 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
You are right ... it is a bad example. I thought that a thread that is full of people's personal theories and youtube videos about race relations might need some Michael Moore-isms.
I agree that alot of this is anecdotal. The only question I have for people is why are minorities so underrepresented in leadership positions in the public and private sector in TO?

This is not about personal experiences, youtube, CNN, CBC, or whatever. It is about asking why a city can demographically evolve into an almost minority majority city, but decision making positions do not seem to adequately represent that demographic shift. If I am imagining this or there is an explanation, I am all ears.

This article breaks it down quite well: Toronto ready for a mayor who represents minorities | Toronto Star

Another good read that was linked to the same topic: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...positions.html

Don't take "Ed from city data's word for it" Take your own established journalists word for it instead.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:05 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,068 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I agree that alot of this is anecdotal. The only question I have for people is why are minorities so underrepresented in leadership positions in the public and private sector in TO?

This is not about personal experiences, youtube, CNN, CBC, or whatever. It is about asking why a city can demographically evolve into an almost minority majority city, but decision making positions do not seem to adequately represent that demographic shift. If I am imagining this or there is an explanation, I am all ears.

This article breaks it down quite well: Toronto ready for a mayor who represents minorities | Toronto Star

Another good read that was linked to the same topic: Visible minorities shut out of leadership positions | Toronto Star

Don't take "Ed from city data's word for it" Take your own established journalists word for it instead.
I read both articles. Some of the criticism is well founded but much of it is unfair.

The article says that Toronto lags behind some other major cities like Chicago and Toronto when it comes to representation for visible minorities. But clearly, we are comparing apples and oranges. The immigrant community in America has had a lot more time to mature than the Canadian immigrant community.

The fact of the matter is that these things take time. An Indian or Chinese immigrant is less likely to hold high office or become police chief not because the city or country is racist. But more because the talent (and contacts) needed for such positions takes time to develop.

Frankly, the article uses anecdotal evidence like the following way too strongly:
Toronto has never had a police or fire chief who was a visible minority. None of the CEOs of the top economic development agencies — Build Toronto Corp., Invest Toronto, Waterfront Toronto, and the Toronto Port Lands Company — are minority
Of the top of my head I can give you a few examples that counter these: What about Prem Watsa (Indian?) who is one of the richest folks in Canada, often known as Canada's Warren Buffet? He placed a Billion dollar bid and now is part owner of BlackBerry. BB remains one of Canada's most iconic tech companies with John Chen, CEO (who is Asian).

My point is that such examples tend to fog the main message.

Just because Calgary's major is Muslim with South Asian heritage, doesn't make Calgary any less racist or more accepting than Toronto. Get my point?

Being a little less serious ... ever wondered why Canada doesn't have more visible minorities playing in the NHL? Is the NHL racist?

Shouldnt there be South Asian and Asian kids in the NHL? Talent takes time to develop. Maybe many generations. Frankly, Canada (or Toronto) is not as far behind as many folks would like to suggest.

Should we have more women and minorities in positions of power? Of-course. But progress is being made everyday and these things take time and cannot happen overnight. I am glad that people realize that there is lack of representation for some in positions of power, and the next step is to fix this gap. I am not sure that there are many places in the world that are even capable of having such an open discussion.
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