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Old 10-21-2014, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,954 posts, read 27,377,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
I read both articles. Some of the criticism is well founded but much of it is unfair.

The article says that Toronto lags behind some other major cities like Chicago and Toronto when it comes to representation for visible minorities. But clearly, we are comparing apples and oranges. The immigrant community in America has had a lot more time to mature than the Canadian immigrant community.

.
I thought the rest of your post was good, but I would say it's not true that racial minority groups in the US (with the exception of African-Americans, who are not immigrants anyway) have been there significantly longer than those in Canada. Migrations of the various groups happened during similar periods of history.

Not even sure if this is true, but if we assume that Indian-Americans or Asian-Americans have acceded to higher levels of power (political, economic, etc.) in the US than in Canada, it's not because those communities have been there a lot longer than they have here.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:34 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,746 times
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I thought the rest of your post was good, but I would say it's not true that racial minority groups in the US (with the exception of African-Americans, who are not immigrants anyway) have been there significantly longer than those in Canada. Migrations of the various groups happened during similar periods of history.

Not even sure if this is true, but if we assume that Indian-Americans or Asian-Americans have acceded to higher levels of power (political, economic, etc.) in the US than in Canada, it's not because those communities have been there a lot longer than they have here.
Thanks!

You are right, most Indian-Americans and Asian-Americans in USA havent been here for much longer than Canadian immigrants. But this difference (w.r.t. Canada) has an easy explanation.

I think there are stats that show that Indians and Asians are the most prosperous immigrant group in America. Indian-Americans like Bobby Jindal have even been elected to high office. So, whats the difference between USA and Canada in this regard?

Simple answer: immigration policy.

The Indians/Asian in America are mostly highly educated and are being invited to America by top companies (think Silicon Valley, H1B visas) to fill high paying and hi-tech jobs. Even more are doctors. Obviously, they tend to rise to even higher positions, make a lot of money, etc ....
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:43 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,012,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
I read both articles. Some of the criticism is well founded but much of it is unfair.

The article says that Toronto lags behind some other major cities like Chicago and Toronto when it comes to representation for visible minorities. But clearly, we are comparing apples and oranges. The immigrant community in America has had a lot more time to mature than the Canadian immigrant community.

The fact of the matter is that these things take time. An Indian or Chinese immigrant is less likely to hold high office or become police chief not because the city or country is racist. But more because the talent (and contacts) needed for such positions takes time to develop.
I am not sure I agree. The migration patterns between the US and Canada developed along the same time lines. Immigrants in the US have not exactly had this running head start over their counterparts in Canada like you suggest. Once a community gains numbers, political clout should follow. Look at the heavy Asian-American influence in SF city council, Cuban-American influence in South Florida or Black Caribbean influence in Dade County.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Frankly, the article uses anecdotal evidence like the following way too strongly:
Toronto has never had a police or fire chief who was a visible minority. None of the CEOs of the top economic development agencies — Build Toronto Corp., Invest Toronto, Waterfront Toronto, and the Toronto Port Lands Company — are minority
No argument there as it is anecdotal. But still troubling at the same time would you not agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Of the top of my head I can give you a few examples that counter these: What about Prem Watsa (Indian?) who is one of the richest folks in Canada, often known as Canada's Warren Buffet? He placed a Billion dollar bid and now is part owner of BlackBerry. BB remains one of Canada's most iconic tech companies with John Chen, CEO (who is Asian).
Don't forget Michael Lee Chin, plus a few more. There are some fantastic examples of success in the immigrant community in Canada and these stories should be celebrated. Same with the US where 40% of the Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants. This does not mean that this success has trickled down to the regular community. But I get your point, both extremes cloud the narrative, that is why we should focus on the average. For some reason the average VM member still has not seen a level of success that should be expected in an accepting society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Being a little less serious ... ever wondered why Canada doesn't have more visible minorities playing in the NHL? Is the NHL racist?

Shouldnt there be South Asian and Asian kids in the NHL? Talent takes time to develop. Maybe many generations. Frankly, Canada (or Toronto) is not as far behind as many folks would like to suggest.
Once again anecdotal, but I will share. I immigrated to Canada as a kid from the Caribbean and like all newcomers to Canada that were athletically inclined I taught myself to skate and eventually play hockey pretty damn well, even though it has never been my favorite sport. There were quite a few incidents with other players on opposing and my own team that would throw out the "N" word when speaking to me on the ice. Some thought it was funny, others meant it to hurt. This experience was shared by quite a few other black kids that I knew, so race does play a factor in the lack of diversity in the NHL.

Don't worry, this helped toughen me up and I learned how to work on my left hook at a young age when someone stepped out of line ; )

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Should we have more women and minorities in positions of power? Of-course. But progress is being made everyday and these things take time and cannot happen overnight. I am glad that people realize that there is lack of representation for some in positions of power, and the next step is to fix this gap. I am not sure that there are many places in the world that are even capable of having such an open discussion.
I completely agree and we will get there one day. The issue is why can we not sustain any momentum? Have you seen the gap narrow at a rapid enough pace? I personally do not agree that we should just sit back and allow time to pass to wait to see a concrete change.

Last edited by edwardsyzzurphands; 10-21-2014 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:51 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,012,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Thanks!

You are right, most Indian-Americans and Asian-Americans in USA havent been here for much longer than Canadian immigrants. But this difference (w.r.t. Canada) has an easy explanation.

I think there are stats that show that Indians and Asians are the most prosperous immigrant group in America. Indian-Americans like Bobby Jindal have even been elected to high office. So, whats the difference between USA and Canada in this regard?

Simple answer: immigration policy.

The Indians/Asian in America are mostly highly educated and are being invited to America by top companies (think Silicon Valley, H1B visas) to fill high paying and hi-tech jobs. Even more are doctors. Obviously, they tend to rise to even higher positions, make a lot of money, etc ....
I understand the point you are making and agree to a certain extent. It is that with the point system in place currently in Canada, you receive one of the most highly educated immigrant classes in the world.

The H1B Visa is capped at 85,000. 20k of which are reserved for Masters degree holders. Asian immigrants do occupy a disproportionately high percentage of those slots, but many also immigrate to join family like every other country.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,954 posts, read 27,377,612 times
Reputation: 8612
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Once again anecdotal, but I will share. I emigrated to Canada as a kid from the Caribbean and like all newcomers to Canada that were athletically inclined I taught myself to skate and eventually play hockey pretty damn well, even though it has never been my favorite sport. There were quite a few incidents with other players on opposing and my own team that would throw out the "N" word when speaking to me on the ice. Some thought it was funny, others meant it to hurt. This experience was shared by quite a few other black kids that I knew, so race does play a factor in the lack of diversity in the NHL.
.
It's rarely stated but the NHL is probably the most problematic major sports league in North America when it comes to race relations. If there have been incidents where bananas have been thrown at black players in MLS, MLB, NBA or NFL I am not aware of them. There is racism in the other leagues as well but when things happen they come down extremely hard on the offenders. (Think of the LA Clippers guy.) In the NHL the most popular commentator is still on the air on a public broadcaster after decades of of spouting intolerant stupidity about everyone from French Canadians to Slavs and Scandinavians to gays.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:58 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,012,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's rarely stated but the NHL is probably the most problematic major sports league in North America when it comes to race relations. If there have been incidents where bananas have been thrown at black players in MLS, MLB, NBA or NFL I am not aware of them. There is racism in the other leagues as well but when things happen they come down extremely hard on the offenders. (Think of the LA Clippers guy.) In the NHL the most popular commentator is still on the air on a public broadcaster after decades of of spouting intolerant stupidity about everyone from French Canadians to Slavs and Scandinavians to gays.
Agreed and North American sports in general have stayed clear from openly racist incidents for the most part and I agree that the NHL in general seems to have unfortunately not stayed clear of this behavior.

I am not coming down on the NHL as a whole, I watch the game and think hockey is a fantastic sport. I also am an avid European Football fan and Football as a sport has had some terrible incidents that make the offenders at NHL games look like choir boys.

Speaking of football, I will check in with you gents later, I've got a CL match to watch. : )
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,954 posts, read 27,377,612 times
Reputation: 8612
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Agreed and North American sports in general have stayed clear from openly racist incidents for the most part and I agree that the NHL in general seems to have unfortunately not stayed clear of this behavior.

I am not coming down on the NHL as a whole, I watch the game and think hockey is a fantastic sport. I also am an avid European Football fan and Football as a sport has had some terrible incidents that make the offenders at NHL games look like choir boys.
: )
And Don Cherry is an unapologetic repeat offender.

Howard Cosell and Jimmy the Greek lost their jobs for much less.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:13 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I am not sure I agree. The migration patterns between the US and Canada developed along the same time lines. Immigrants in the US have not exactly had this running head start over their counterparts in Canada like you suggest. Once a community gains numbers, political clout should follow. Look at the heavy Asian-American influence in SF city council, Cuban-American influence in South Florida or Black Caribbean influence in Dade County.
These are all good points. But allow me to offer a slightly different perspective.

I don't know much about the examples you mentioned, but let's stick to more recognizable examples like Bobby Jindal or Ted Cruz.

Do you really think that top leaders like Bobby Jindal were elected because they appealed to minorities or were they just very talented politicians who happened to be minorities? Jindal is the governor of Louisiana ... yes Louisiana .. how many Indian-Americans and other minorities live there you think?

And Ted Cruz, is a champion in a (Republican) party that is notorious for not getting the Latino vote.

Politics is all about talent. And yes, you need to raise a lot of money. I have no doubt in my mind that a very talented politician, no matter what the race/ethnicity would get elected to any office in Canada.
We definitely don't want a system in Canada where the Indian immigrants vote for the Indian guy and the Caribbean immigrant votes for the Caribbean guy ..


Quote:
Once again anecdotal, but I will share. I emigrated to Canada as a kid from the Caribbean and like all newcomers to Canada that were athletically inclined I taught myself to skate and eventually play hockey pretty damn well, even though it has never been my favorite sport. There were quite a few incidents with other players on opposing and my own team that would throw out the "N" word when speaking to me on the ice. Some thought it was funny, others meant it to hurt. This experience was shared by quite a few other black kids that I knew, so race does play a factor in the lack of diversity in the NHL.
That's just unfortunate...

Quote:
Don't worry, this helped toughen me up and I learned how to work on my left hook at a young age when someone stepped out of line ; )
Well, then you would have made a great hockey player.

Quote:
I completely agree and we will get there one day. The issue is why can we not sustain any momentum? Have you seen the gap narrow at a rapid enough pace? I personally do not agree that we should just sit back and allow time to pass to wait to see a concrete change.
No. The change is not fast enough. But I think Canada is in a better position than a lot of other countries.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:17 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I understand the point you are making and agree to a certain extent. It is that with the point system in place currently in Canada, you receive one of the most highly educated immigrant classes in the world.

The H1B Visa is capped at 85,000. 20k of which are reserved for Masters degree holders. Asian immigrants do occupy a disproportionately high percentage of those slots, but many also immigrate to join family like every other country.
Well, there is more. 100s of American universities accepting the best and the brightest college students from Asia. There are company to company transfers ...

Canadian point system is a joke.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
5,746 posts, read 3,211,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
No offense, but that is kind of a terrible example. Detroit is 83% Black, Windsor is 4% Black. How could anyone compare segregation between the two cities when the demographics could not be any less similar.

Windsor may be a great place, I don't know much about it, but that gentleman was speaking about a place he is visiting not living. I have great experiences visiting everywhere, but finding a job, securing housing, navigating the political system is a much different experience than crossing over the border and having a beer at the local bar and everyone is your best friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
You are right ... it is a bad example. I thought that a thread that is full of people's personal theories and youtube videos about race relations might need some Michael Moore-isms.

But I also think that there is some truth to this. Detroit wasn't always 83% Black and there are still super-rich areas in around Detroit that are predominantly White. But that's a totally different discussion.

You beat me to it, ed. I lived in Detroit for years, and I'm quite familiar with Windsor. You are absolutely right; a comparison between Detroit with Windsor? Demographically speaking, there's simply no way to compare the two cities. None.

And yes, sandman, Detroit is a segregated city. In fact, it's the most segregated large city in the US. But I lived in one of the "super-rich" suburbs, and the black population is still significantly larger there than it is in most major Canadian cities. What's the black population where you live? And just as a matter of interest, where else have you lived?

Halifax is one Canadian city with an historically significant black population, most of whom are descended from freed US slaves. I'm sure you know about the racial segregation in Halifax's past.

To answer the question this thread poses: Canadians are well-intentioned, and they do try to be racially aware, but they are NOT less racist than Americans. I never believed it before I lived in the US, and I certainly don't believe it now. Both countries have a lot of work to do, but at least the US deals with the issue openly.
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