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Old 11-01-2014, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,156,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Are you surprised? Overt racism is not the issue in Canada, it is systemic. This is hardly some revelation.
Please tell me where systemic racism doesn't exist...it exists everywhere unfortunately. Nevertheless - it is still a good thing that people came to the guys defense quite heartily and this is far from being a bad thing - especially in light of the events that just occurred in Ottawa. We put things into perspective quite well actually.

Certainly a good thing compared to this in Dearborn Mi re Terry Jones.......Things like the below are less likely to happen up here.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...78677474,d.eXY

Last edited by fusion2; 11-01-2014 at 02:48 PM..
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:03 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,013,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Please tell me where systemic racism doesn't exist...it exists everywhere unfortunately. Nevertheless - it is still a good thing that people came to the guys defense quite heartily and this is far from being a bad thing - especially in light of the events that just occurred in Ottawa. We put things into perspective quite well actually.

Certainly a good thing compared to this in Dearborn Mi re Terry Jones.......Things like the below are less likely to happen up here.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...78677474,d.eXY
I was responding to a video about Canada, not sure why any other country needs to be involved in this. This video is great, I love seeing people stand up for others of another faith, race and sexual orientation, but at the end of the day that is not what helps marginalized groups move forward.

You have horrible examples like that nut job Terry Jones you posted, but then on the flip side you also have examples like this:
American Soldier's AMAZING Response To Anti-Muslim Comments: "We Live In America" - YouTube

To me the positive video's posted above are what I know to be true for the most part in Canada and the US, but at the same time I also know that those video's are made to pat people on the back and make them feel good about themselves, nothing more, nothing less. When Muslims stop facing more scrutiny at airports throughout the US and are no longer subject to increased scrutiny in the form of investigations and monitoring from certain authorities, then we can claim a victory.

The same way you as a Canadian should be outraged at the anti muslim rhetoric that filled the last municipal election in Toronto and defacing of a Mosque in Alberta: Muslim groups urge Harper to speak out against anti-Muslim backlash | Toronto Star
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,156,879 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I was responding to a video about Canada, not sure why any other country needs to be involved in this. This video is great, I love seeing people stand up for others of another faith, race and sexual orientation, but at the end of the day that is not what helps marginalized groups move forward.

You have horrible examples like that nut job Terry Jones you posted, but then on the flip side you also have examples like this:
American Soldier's AMAZING Response To Anti-Muslim Comments: "We Live In America" - YouTube

To me the positive video's posted above are what I know to be true for the most part in Canada and the US, but at the same time I also know that those video's are made to pat people on the back and make them feel good about themselves, nothing more, nothing less. When Muslims stop facing more scrutiny at airports throughout the US and are no longer subject to increased scrutiny in the form of investigations and monitoring from certain authorities, then we can claim a victory.

The same way you as a Canadian should be outraged at the anti muslim rhetoric that filled the last municipal election in Toronto and defacing of a Mosque in Alberta: Muslim groups urge Harper to speak out against anti-Muslim backlash | Toronto Star
So basically we have examples of overt and systemic racism in both Canada and the U.S... Therefore it is not exactly constructive just citing positive and rosy red images of one and dumping on only the other.. Not sure how that approach will combat examples of overt or systemic racism in either country.. I think if we start from a position of objectivity and balance than perhaps that is a good point in actually doing something about it..

I'm outraged by all examples of racism anyplace, anywhere to be honest.. Not just abroad but home as well.. The best way I can do my part is to set an example for others in my dealings with all people regardless whether they are straight, gay, male, female, tall, short, skinny, obese, ugly, a model, bald, flowing locks, black, white, Muslim, Jew etc...

It would be interesting to look at the ages of those who are engaging in anti-anything rhetoric and action... If it is our younger generation than we have a lot more work to do... The only way to change is through good public policy, progressive laws and education.. I am not going to fundamentally change someone who is 45 and has his mind set but we are going to be able to influence kids growing up and that has to be the focus. I do and underscore do think kids in this day and age growing up will be far more open minded and accepting of others and less prone to support systemic racism than the dinosaurs who have come before me.

Anyway, this thread is essentially a verse thread and quite frankly it isn't very productive by its very nature at rooting out the problem... A far more useful topic is what is the best approach to mitigate with the goal of eliminating all forms of Racism.. That approach and incorporating it into any society, including Canada's, instead of just having a tit for tat verse is objectively the best way to move things along.

Last edited by fusion2; 11-01-2014 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:59 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,013,882 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
So basically we have examples of overt and systemic racism in both Canada and the U.S... Therefore it is not exactly constructive just citing positive and rosy red images of one and dumping on only the other.. Not sure how that approach will combat examples of overt or systemic racism in either country.. I think if we start from a position of objectivity and balance than perhaps that is a good point in actually doing something about it..

I'm outraged by all examples of racism anyplace, anywhere to be honest.. Not just abroad but home as well.. The best way I can do my part is to set an example for others in my dealings with all people regardless whether they are straight, gay, male, female, tall, short, skinny, obese, ugly, a model, bald, flowing locks, black, white, Muslim, Jew etc...

It would be interesting to look at the ages of those who are engaging in anti-anything rhetoric and action... If it is our younger generation than we have a lot more work to do... The only way to change is through good public policy, progressive laws and education.. I am not going to fundamentally change someone who is 45 and has his mind set but we are going to be able to influence kids growing up and that has to be the focus. I do and underscore do think kids in this day and age growing up will be far more open minded and accepting of others and less prone to support systemic racism than the dinosaurs who have come before me.

Anyway, this thread is essentially a verse thread and quite frankly it isn't very productive by its very nature at rooting out the problem... A far more useful topic is what is the best approach to mitigate with the goal of eliminating all forms of Racism.. That approach and incorporating it into any society, including Canada's, instead of just having a tit for tat verse is objectively the best way to move things along.
Well I am glad you are dont have a problem with tall black straight dudes with flowing locks....cause if not, we could never be friends. I kid, I kid.

Seriously though, I agree with the remainder of your post completely. I am glad you mentioned good public policy, because I truly believe that does make a difference. That is a reason why I harp so much on proper representation publicly, because good policy cant be formed without everyone present at the table.

All these threads denigrate into BS tit for tats and that is unfortunate, because if people weeded through the Bull sh*t they would realize that alot of us have good points to make, regardless of whether we agree with each other or not.
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Old 11-01-2014, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,156,879 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Well I am glad you are dont have a problem with tall black straight dudes with flowing locks....cause if not, we could never be friends. I kid, I kid.

Seriously though, I agree with the remainder of your post completely. I am glad you mentioned good public policy, because I truly believe that does make a difference. That is a reason why I harp so much on proper representation publicly, because good policy cant be formed without everyone present at the table.

All these threads denigrate into BS tit for tats and that is unfortunate, because if people weeded through the Bull sh*t they would realize that alot of us have good points to make, regardless of whether we agree with each other or not.
Actually i'm a very open minded and accepting individual and to be honest I've grown up as a minority in one way or another all my life.. I'm a gay white male who grew in a predominantly visible minority, largely straight section of Toronto (Jane/Finch) from a small child into early adulthood. so I have zero issues with tall black straight dudes with flowing locks - although I do prefer more closely cropped hair styles lol..

Otherwise I don't think we fundamentally disagree on approach and at the end of the day I do think we ultimately want the same thing. I just wish the overall discussion of a thread like this is the goal of rooting out racism over time and what successful practices would actually go about doing something about the problem..
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Old 11-01-2014, 05:02 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I am glad someone bumped this thread, because I did not even notice your reply. Sorry for overlooking it.

The issue is that you made an incorrect assumption. The intent of my post was to show the size and power of the black consumer market in the USA, not the overall health of the community. Can you not see the benefits of being able to tap into a large consumer market, which is tailored towards people of your race?
No worries about the delayed response and I apologize if I made an incorrect assumption regarding the intent of your post.

That said, I don't understand the point of differentiating the black consumer market from the white or brown consumer markets. I outright reject the assumption that the "black consumer" is any different from the rest of the American consumers. Does Atlanta, a >50% black city exhibit consuming patterns that are any different from other similar sized American cities?

I think consuming patterns are starkly different across incomes line. Not across racial lines.

Quote:
This is something that white folks take for granted in both the US and Canada, because the market is already tailored towards your needs already. That was my point.
I am sorry if I'm being naive. But can you give me a specific example?

I don't understand how the black consumer needs are any different from the white consumer needs. What are we talking about here? Hair products (pun intended)? In my experience, a middle class black and white guy want to buy/consume the same things.

Subtle differences in consuming patterns do not matter. I keep going back to institutional racism which is very different between the two countries, Canada and the USA. Canada does not have drug laws that target people based on race. Canada does not have voting laws that block votes from a certain race. In general, Canada does not pass laws that kick you while you are down. Can you say the same about the US?

Quote:
As far as the overall health of the black community is concerned, I am not sure if you noticed but it is not good anywhere. Until we earn as much as white people, have equal unemployment rates, home ownership rates and get stopped by police and incarcerated at similar rates, then the situation will never be considered "great". This is the reality in both the US and Canada. The difference is that there is a black professional infrastructure in place in the US that is not present in Canada, so therefore many black professionals are attracted to the US over Canada despite the problems you mentioned.
Well, couldn't you say the same thing about Asian professionals in Canada vs USA? The issue you describe above has more to do with the economics and size of the two countries.

The experience of an African American born in the south side of Chicago has little to nothing in common with a guy who immigrates from the Caribbean (with a college degree) who happens to be black. I certainly think that it is wrong to pool the two experiences together just based on skin color.
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Old 11-01-2014, 05:17 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Interesting social experiment regarding the reactions of Canadians at a bus stop to a Caucasian man harassing a Muslim man.. Happy about the results!

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...6386.html?vp=1
I am happy that you appreciate my posts in this thread. That said, I don't like such videos. Social experiments are never a good idea and always remind me of the Milgram Experiment!
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Old 11-01-2014, 05:36 PM
 
489 posts, read 1,052,735 times
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Quote:
This is something that white folks take for granted in both the US and Canada, because the market is already tailored towards your needs already. That was my point
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
I am sorry if I'm being naive. But can you give me a specific example?
Just off the top of my head (and from a women's perspective):

Makeup
Hair products
Skincare
Fashion and Lifestyle magazines
Anything coloured fresh tone or nude.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:09 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,013,882 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
That said, I don't understand the point of differentiating the black consumer market from the white or brown consumer markets. I outright reject the assumption that the "black consumer" is any different from the rest of the American consumers. Does Atlanta, a >50% black city exhibit consuming patterns that are any different from other similar sized American cities?

I think consuming patterns are starkly different across incomes line. Not across racial lines.


I am sorry if I'm being naive. But can you give me a specific example?

I don't understand how the black consumer needs are any different from the white consumer needs. What are we talking about here? Hair products (pun intended)? In my experience, a middle class black and white guy want to buy/consume the same things.
Of course there is alot of overlap, my white friends and I share similar interests quite often. But as Average Fruit mentioned, hair products (You may think its funny, but it is important if you want to look presentable), beauty products, foods, etc...It is also access to the arts and literature tailored towards a black audience. For example my wife and I regularly attend the Theatre and Symphony in London and did the same in our previous location Boston. Sometimes though we would like to see a play or show that features a predominantly black cast and tells a story about the black experience. This is something we miss about Boston, because we could easily attend a show at the Strand Theatre and access this along with a regular "Broadway" show or Orchestra event.

Taking it even further, it is not only about products marketed towards a black cliental, but also the willingness of mainstream retailers to invest and open their establishments in a predominantly minority community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Subtle differences in consuming patterns do not matter. I keep going back to institutional racism which is very different between the two countries, Canada and the USA. Canada does not have drug laws that target people based on race. Canada does not have voting laws that block votes from a certain race. In general, Canada does not pass laws that kick you while you are down. Can you say the same about the US?
I think you should read the following articles. Have you ever been "Carded" in Toronto when you lived there? (This is the TPS version of stop and frisk) If so how many do you have on file? Personally I have multiple cards on file, but no criminal record, have never been in trouble in my life. Just walking peacefully through your city without harassment is something that both White Americans and Canadians take for granted.

Unequal justice: Aboriginal and black inmates disproportionately fill Ontario jails | Toronto Star

Known to Police | GTA | Toronto Star


Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Well, couldn't you say the same thing about Asian professionals in Canada vs USA? The issue you describe above has more to do with the economics and size of the two countries.

The experience of an African American born in the south side of Chicago has little to nothing in common with a guy who immigrates from the Caribbean (with a college degree) who happens to be black. I certainly think that it is wrong to pool the two experiences together just based on skin color.
Not sure I understand your point about Asian professionals, could you clarify? Asian households have out-earned white households in the US since the 1996 tax year.

I am a black man born in the caribbean. While I may not share much in common culturally with an black american, many of our experiences do intersect. When we are walking down the road and a police officer sees us, we are both black; when we are hailing a cab in the middle of the night, we are both black; when we walk into a job interview and make a first impression, we are both black. So yes we can pool many of our experiences together, I can speak from experience.
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,156,879 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post

I am a black man born in the caribbean. While I may not share much in common culturally with an black american, many of our experiences do intersect. When we are walking down the road and a police officer sees us, we are both black; when we are hailing a cab in the middle of the night, we are both black; when we walk into a job interview and make a first impression, we are both black. So yes we can pool many of our experiences together, I can speak from experience.
This is the brutal truth unfortunately and there are a few dynamics at play with this....

First, people will judge you based on the group you are associated with, especially if there is a negative connation associated with that group.. It isn't until they get to know you more than casually that they will judge you based on who you really are as human being. This is one of our biggest shortcomings unfortunately, that we simply judge people based on superficialities and we don't automatically give a person the benefit of the doubt. This is why our educational system needs to address these issues and start young and it isn't just on matters of race either... It is breaking away from the cycle of judging a person based on their connection/association with a group, what they look like and other factors that have nothing to do with the content of character as an individual human being.

The second dynamic is how the person reacts and responds to being judged so unfairly.. Its complicated and highly personal but I think we can't underestimate the damage it causes a person psychologically when they are constantly the victim of this from a young age into adulthood.. The strong can push through (you are an example of this) but many just don't do so well so I think this is the other area we need to examine if we really want to meaningfully break the mean cycle of systemic racism. Public policy and laws, opening up the discussion in the media, - all good things but until you really get to the heart of the issue than it is going to continue to rear its ugly head.

Last edited by fusion2; 11-02-2014 at 01:18 PM..
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