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Old 11-02-2014, 01:46 PM
 
1,008 posts, read 1,121,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I am glad someone bumped this thread, because I did not even notice your reply. Sorry for overlooking it.

The issue is that you made an incorrect assumption. The intent of my post was to show the size and power of the black consumer market in the USA, not the overall health of the community. Can you not see the benefits of being able to tap into a large consumer market, which is tailored towards people of your race?

This is something that white folks take for granted in both the US and Canada, because the market is already tailored towards your needs already. That was my point.

As far as the overall health of the black community is concerned, I am not sure if you noticed but it is not good anywhere. Until we earn as much as white people, have equal unemployment rates, home ownership rates and get stopped by police and incarcerated at similar rates, then the situation will never be considered "great". This is the reality in both the US and Canada. The difference is that there is a black professional infrastructure in place in the US that is not present in Canada, so therefore many black professionals are attracted to the US over Canada despite the problems you mentioned.


And yet despite this "so called" black professional
structure in place in the USA, blacks on
average here still live much worse than blacks in Canada
so how do you explain this?
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:12 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This is the brutal truth unfortunately and there are a few dynamics at play with this....

First, people will judge you based on the group you are associated with, especially if there is a negative connation associated with that group.. It isn't until they get to know you more than casually that they will judge you based on who you really are as human being. This is one of our biggest shortcomings unfortunately, that we simply judge people based on superficialities and we don't automatically give a person the benefit of the doubt. This is why our educational system needs to address these issues and start young and it isn't just on matters of race either... It is breaking away from the cycle of judging a person based on their connection/association with a group, what they look like and other factors that have nothing to do with the content of character as an individual human being.

The second dynamic is how the person reacts and responds to being judged so unfairly.. Its complicated and highly personal but I think we can't underestimate the damage it causes a person psychologically when they are constantly the victim of this from a young age into adulthood.. The strong can push through (you are an example of this) but many just don't do so well so I think this is the other area we need to examine if we really want to meaningfully break the mean cycle of systemic racism. Public policy and laws, opening up the discussion in the media, - all good things but until you really get to the heart of the issue than it is going to continue to rear its ugly head.
Excellent Post, not much to add myself.

It is a shared responsibility though. One part as you said is good policy and the system needs to stop targeting and criminalizing black males from such a young age.

On the other hand I cant take away all responsibility from the black community either. We have way too many single parent households, which is the root of many of the problems that plague the community in both the US and Canada. Of course the way the justice system is set up contributes to many fathers being incarcerated, but that is not the only reason. The reason why someone like me was able to overcome certain obstacles is because I grew up in a 2 parent family and had strong role models right in my household.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Europeanflava View Post
And yet despite this "so called" black professional
structure in place in the USA, blacks on
average here still live much worse than blacks in Canada
so how do you explain this?
I guess I could answer your question if I agreed with you, which I do not. The average black person in both the US and Canada is classified as middle class by the tax code. The average black household makes a similar income and shares a significant gap in wages to all other groups, especially white households.

So I think the average black family shares a similar experience in both countries and also shares similar roadblocks as well.
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:06 AM
 
126 posts, read 491,345 times
Reputation: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Are you surprised? Overt racism is not the issue in Canada, it is systemic. This is hardly some revelation.
Are you serious?

Overt racism is a problem in Canada. White Canadians know that racism exists and they accept it -- at least most of them. Actually, most non-blacks know and accept it.

Most whites who say otherwise are liars, plain and simple -- although you can never been sure who is and is not lying. But rest assured, most are liars -- including the very people who post on this website.

The thing though is that they try to hide racism from members of the group that is its target: whether it is anti-black racism directed at blacks or the hatred and stereotyping of Muslims.

To be sure, not every group is equally hated -- blacks are by far the worst aside from First Nations in some parts of the country.

But make no mistake, if someone were to explicitly express racism directed at blacks when blacks weren't present, most non-black -- and especially white -- Canadians would not have a problem.

I came to that conclusion based on my own very careful reflections of what I've seen and experienced in Canada, especially in Toronto.

And as it happens, there was an experiment done a few years ago which concluded just as much. You can read about it here: Reactions to racism not as strong as we think, study finds - Technology & Science - CBC News

Let me add that the lead author's conclusion that her study shows that people hold implicit biases is totally unfounded.

Anyway, for this reason white denials of racism -- especially white Canadian denials of racism -- mean absolutely nothing to me. When it comes to race, these people are habitual liars.


I should also note that overt racism is not in any way opposed to systemic racism. To think otherwise is a result of confusion; racism can be both overt and systemic. I am sure you would not want to deny that racism in the Jim Crow South, for example, was both overt and systemic.

Last edited by Leaving on a Jet Plane; 11-03-2014 at 12:29 AM..
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:32 PM
 
126 posts, read 491,345 times
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Then again, you may have a point if you mean that racism is not often openly expressed to the person or persons targeted by it. But I'm convinced that racism is openly expressed -- when members of the group in question are not present.
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,541,240 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving on a Jet Plane View Post
Then again, you may have a point if you mean that racism is not often openly expressed to the person or persons targeted by it. But I'm convinced that racism is openly expressed -- when members of the group in question are not present.
I think that might be true of everywhere - racism and similar things wouldn't usually be expressed to someone's face.

Ultimately, I am not sure if that matters. Once upon a time when I was younger, I thought it was possible to discuss racism when people made racist remarks in front of me and make them see the light. Now I don't believe that that is possible any more. I think the best one can hope for is for people to be self-conscious enough not to make comments about race out loud.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:19 PM
 
126 posts, read 491,345 times
Reputation: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I think that might be true of everywhere - racism and similar things wouldn't usually be expressed to someone's face.

Ultimately, I am not sure if that matters. Once upon a time when I was younger, I thought it was possible to discuss racism when people made racist remarks in front of me and make them see the light. Now I don't believe that that is possible any more. I think the best one can hope for is for people to be self-conscious enough not to make comments about race out loud.
Why don't you think it is possible anymore?
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,541,240 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaving on a Jet Plane View Post
Why don't you think it is possible anymore?
No racist I've spoken to has ever changed their mind. Seems like the best thing I can do is let them know I don't allow such talk in my house.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:04 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,010,720 times
Reputation: 2661
The National on CBC had a pretty interesting special relating to this topic. Forward to 26:00 if you are interested.

The National for November 12, 2014 - The National - CBC Player
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:40 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,995,779 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post

I think you should read the following articles. Have you ever been "Carded" in Toronto when you lived there? (This is the TPS version of stop and frisk) If so how many do you have on file? Personally I have multiple cards on file, but no criminal record, have never been in trouble in my life. Just walking peacefully through your city without harassment is something that both White Americans and Canadians take for granted.

Unequal justice: Aboriginal and black inmates disproportionately fill Ontario jails | Toronto Star

Known to Police | GTA | Toronto Star
I read those articles. It took me some time to respond to this because I felt like the articles were a little misleading. I'd be foolish to discount the entire message from this study, but do feel that the numbers and magnitude of the black vs white disparity are a little misleading.

You should note that the data that was used for these articles were from a UofT doctoral candidate thesis.

I think that the article makes incorrect statements about black and aboriginal boys. More than 40% of the youth data is missing. Which means that for nearly half the youth inmates, the analysis was unable to obtain the ethnicity.
With youth, ethnicity was not known in 42 to 46 per cent of admissions over a seven-year period, from 2005 to 2012. For adults, the unknown portion rose over a 16-year period from a low of 3 per cent in 1992 to 12 per cent in 2008.
In addition to the ethnicities of aboriginal, black and white, the Star aggregated East Asian, Hispanic, South Asian, Southeast Asian, West Asian, and Arabic into a group called “Other” in its analysis.
If you look at the graphs made using the raw data, you will note that % whites jailed is the HIGHEST for all parts of Canada. The unknown section is very large and frankly renders the analysis useless!

I don't mean to pick apart this article. Canada may have a problem with jailing minorities. But to equate the problem with that in the US is wrong.
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