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Old 06-17-2012, 07:54 PM
 
312 posts, read 946,300 times
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I wish the exact opposite. I wish Canada would become more liberal than it is now. Remember we are a conservative country now (With a majority conservative government) so I am not quite sure where the statement of "Conservative Christians are marginalized and despised." Canada should be more liberal and focus on rights first. Every women should have the right to abortion and I find it it cruel and horrible to take those rights away from people.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:49 PM
 
242 posts, read 439,160 times
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^ Agreed. Canada should become even more liberal. Religion has no role in government at all. Pastures/priests can't just be left unchecked simply due their "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech" claims. While people should be able to say what they want, this can change when they are preaching hate.

Just look at the recent Alberta election, even a hint of bigotry and discrimination and the Wildrose Party went from about to win a strong majority to losing the election completely. You can't hide behind freedom of speech to get away with attacking others for things they cannot change. A person cannot help if they are gay, lesbian, or are Jewish, Muslim, black, etc. We are all equal people and have the right to be treated and looked at as the same without being singled out and ridiculed. A person should not have to walk around feeling ashamed for who they are. It should ALL be embraced.

I loved Pierre Trudeau and still think he is one of our best prime minsters ever. The charter of rights and freedoms makes us distinctly Canadian and gives us rights as human beings. Nothing bothers me more than people who use their religion as an excuse to treat others as second class citizens. People need to wake up and realize that no two people have the identical beliefs. The state can't shove a set of religious ideas down the throat of the public. It's public money funding the system, so a third party system must be set up that treats ALL people the same and ensures the respect and safety of all. This is regardless of any religious belief. I fully support freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, but ultimately I believe the human rights and civil rights trump everything in importance. Canada has come a long way, and is miles ahead of the US, but ultimately still has a little ways to go.
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:29 PM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,033,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
^ Agreed. Canada should become even more liberal. Religion has no role in government at all. Pastures/priests can't just be left unchecked simply due their "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech" claims. While people should be able to say what they want, this can change when they are preaching hate.
I disagree with you. People should feel free to say whatever they want, no matter how stupid or incredulous. Once out in the open, others should then speak freely to debate and, if appropriate, shoot down their ideas. That's how we engage in the search for the truth. Without debate, bad ideas are left to fester. If you do anything to suppress those bad ideas, then they'll bubble under the surface only to reappear sometime in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
Just look at the recent Alberta election, even a hint of bigotry and discrimination and the Wildrose Party went from about to win a strong majority to losing the election completely. You can't hide behind freedom of speech to get away with attacking others for things they cannot change. A person cannot help if they are gay, lesbian, or are Jewish, Muslim, black, etc. We are all equal people and have the right to be treated and looked at as the same without being singled out and ridiculed. A person should not have to walk around feeling ashamed for who they are. It should ALL be embraced.
Yes, do look at the recent Alberta election. It was the people, speaking freely, that brought that to the fore. It wasn't some kind of asinine and juvenile speech code and the people who police it that did so. Let idiots speak freely and then let others expose them as the know-nothings that they are. That's how you win in a democratic society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
I loved Pierre Trudeau and still think he is one of our best prime minsters ever. The charter of rights and freedoms makes us distinctly Canadian and gives us rights as human beings. Nothing bothers me more than people who use their religion as an excuse to treat others as second class citizens. People need to wake up and realize that no two people have the identical beliefs. The state can't shove a set of religious ideas down the throat of the public. It's public money funding the system, so a third party system must be set up that treats ALL people the same and ensures the respect and safety of all. This is regardless of any religious belief. I fully support freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, but ultimately I believe the human rights and civil rights trump everything in importance. Canada has come a long way, and is miles ahead of the US, but ultimately still has a little ways to go.
Trudeau was a charlatan who single-handedly set back the Canadian economy by almost 20 years. He was a disaster.

Freedom of speech is a human right, my friend. I think you are missing that fact.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:19 PM
 
312 posts, read 946,300 times
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I am a big fan of Trudeau as well and I do believe he was our best Prime Minister yet. I agree that religion should be left out of the government completely because let's face it, nobody will ever agree completely with each other on this and there will always be different views and beliefs. I am a supporter of gay marriage because honestly it does not bother me what two people want to do with each other in their life and I believe it should not bother other people as well. Why shouldn't you be able to sleep at night because of what other people do in their life who don't have the same religion or views as you? Why should the government have control over gay marriage and abortion for that matter? I believe it is not fair for the government to control and decide these kinds of things. And yes, Canada is doing very good (especially when compared to the U.S.) But I think it can improve a lot more and yes, Human rights will always be more important than religion. I really miss Jack Layton. ):
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,541,240 times
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Well, the irony of Chris' post is in the examples he cites, Canada was miles behind the US until 1988 and Morgantaler, who, as his own link noted, is still a controversial figure in Canada, hardly a hero. As for the Gibbons case, there have been similar cases in the US, which resulted in the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. And the pastor case, was clearly the result of an over-zealous Human Rights Commission, and the case subsequently dismissed.

And I don't see how any of these examples connect to Trudeau or an attempt to "Europeanize" Canada. Whether you like Trudeau or not, and whether you think he divided Canada or not, his attempt was to Canadianize and reconcile the two solitudes in Canada, and make sure that Canadians dictated their own policy and didn't become a US satellite.

I agree with the posters that stated Canada is hardly a very liberal country. At heart we are quite conservative. I think there's quite a bit of difference in how we define the term compared to Americans, but unfortunately, imo, some of the vitriol south of the border that has changed the conservative movement there, has infiltrated the traditional Canadian idea of what a conservative is.
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,541,240 times
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Originally Posted by ExtremeMan8 View Post
I am a big fan of Trudeau as well and I do believe he was our best Prime Minister yet. I agree that religion should be left out of the government completely because let's face it, nobody will ever agree completely with each other on this and there will always be different views and beliefs. I am a supporter of gay marriage because honestly it does not bother me what two people want to do with each other in their life and I believe it should not bother other people as well. Why shouldn't you be able to sleep at night because of what other people do in their life who don't have the same religion or views as you? Why should the government have control over gay marriage and abortion for that matter? I believe it is not fair for the government to control and decide these kinds of things. And yes, Canada is doing very good (especially when compared to the U.S.) But I think it can improve a lot more and yes, Human rights will always be more important than religion. I really miss Jack Layton. ):
I agree with you - religion is however one personally feels connected to a higher power, with the emphasis on the personal. It has no place in government.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
65 posts, read 161,594 times
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Originally Posted by maclock View Post
First victim.

Just made my day, ROTFLMBO... (Rolling on the floor laughing my butt off) Sorry, that was just soo priceless...
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
65 posts, read 161,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis3000 View Post
^
I loved Pierre Trudeau and still think he is one of our best prime minsters ever. The charter of rights and freedoms makes us distinctly Canadian and gives us rights as human beings. Nothing bothers me more than people who use their religion as an excuse to treat others as second class citizens. People need to wake up and realize that no two people have the identical beliefs. The state can't shove a set of religious ideas down the throat of the public. It's public money funding the system, so a third party system must be set up that treats ALL people the same and ensures the respect and safety of all. This is regardless of any religious belief. I fully support freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, but ultimately I believe the human rights and civil rights trump everything in importance. Canada has come a long way, and is miles ahead of the US, but ultimately still has a little ways to go.
Although I know nothing about Pierre Trudeau but, I fully agree with you too. Unfortunately, here in the U.S. is the same in alot of ways also about the public money funding system, using our religion as an excuse to treat as second class citizens and soo forth. Everyone does have a freedom of speech and rights. Well, we used to until' Martin Luther King died then, our freedom of speech and rights vanished. Maybe, not exactly vanished out of thin air but, depending on how we act, what we say and what we support will cost us a pretty penny. It's always the money issue with U.S. Honestly, there really isn't a such thing of freedom of speech anymore.

To me, it's like being pull over and without questions, the officers will take you in and always say's You have the right to be silence and everything you say will be held against you in the court of law. Just for the record, never had that happened but, in our defense...what happened to our freedom of speech rights?

I'm sure every countries outside of the U.S. is more tolerance and advanced then we are. Even, here in the U.S. also has a LONG WAYS to go. That I do also agree on. However, it will take about 100 years or so, to be where Canada and other countries stands.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,495,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18wheeler_truckdriver View Post
Although I know nothing about Pierre Trudeau but, I fully agree with you too. Unfortunately, here in the U.S. is the same in alot of ways also about the public money funding system, using our religion as an excuse to treat as second class citizens and soo forth. Everyone does have a freedom of speech and rights. Well, we used to until' Martin Luther King died then, our freedom of speech and rights vanished. Maybe, not exactly vanished out of thin air but, depending on how we act, what we say and what we support will cost us a pretty penny. It's always the money issue with U.S. Honestly, there really isn't a such thing of freedom of speech anymore.

To me, it's like being pull over and without questions, the officers will take you in and always say's You have the right to be silence and everything you say will be held against you in the court of law. Just for the record, never had that happened but, in our defense...what happened to our freedom of speech rights?

I'm sure every countries outside of the U.S. is more tolerance and advanced then we are. Even, here in the U.S. also has a LONG WAYS to go. That I do also agree on. However, it will take about 100 years or so, to be where Canada and other countries stands.
I don't know about that, the US has it's problems but there's definitely worse countries out there that are less free, no questions about it, US is above average.

Interesting fact about Trudeau, he was a pious Catholic who was a virgin until his marriage to the wild Mrs. Trudeau. I see religion in Canada as politically neutral. We have a Right, it's just not a Religious Right, which is an important distinction, and, I think, healthy for democracy. Agreed that free speech is important and we should defend it more zealously.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:32 AM
 
242 posts, read 439,160 times
Reputation: 233
I support freedom of speech and yes I agree to be a fully democratic society, you need that freedom. It becomes a slippery slope though when others are hurt from your "freedom of speech". For instance, does a public or privately funded school have the right to deny the holocaust, bash gays, refer to colored people in a derogatory form, bash Jews, continually harass students who are overweight? Can a pasture go from school to school lecturing students on how gays should be collected in concentration camps and burned, or how women should obey their husbands? People often get so caught up in this freedom of speech they forget that if any country were to fully embrace this freedom, it can clearly get out of control. Where is the line? At what point do we snap into reality and say enough is enough, freedom of speech even has it's limits. I know recently in Ontario a private Muslim school was shut down and fined because they were teaching an anti-Jewish curriculum. In Nova Scotia last month, a student was suspended because of consistently preaching his religious beliefs at school, wearing t-shirts saying if you don't believe in god you are going to hell, and despite repeated warning, he continued to bible thump in the classroom to his fellow students. He was then suspended for a week.

I know here in Ontario, we have anti-bullying laws which are becoming more strict. If you bully a student for any reason, this can result in an instant suspension. I agree with this. I was bullied as a kid in school and this can be very emotionally damaging to any child. I guess my point here is this: is it even possible to have 100% free speech while at the same time have a human rights code to follow? At what point does a society stop and say... people are free to say whatever they want until you are attacking another person for something they cannot change. Does the one human have a right to speak freely, or does the guy on the other end have the right to be in public without being harassed, insulted, and verbally abused? It's a debate that will continue going on for ages.

Personally, I will always side with the basic human rights of any person. Say what you want yes, but when this crosses the line of personally insulting someone for something they have zero control over or continually harass a person... you should be punished for it. A persons mouth can be just as damaging as their fist.

Last edited by travis3000; 06-18-2012 at 10:42 AM..
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