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Old 06-09-2012, 01:37 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,781 times
Reputation: 191

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
That's the very nature of my point exactly. You refer to the Anglo's in the same manner that would be used as a derogatory. Germany referring to the anglos is nothing new in regards to England but they do not feel the same towards either Canada or the U.S. of A. and this I know for fact.
This is a severe projection, my point about germany is it has the strongest language in europe and at the same time openly embrace english, yet even they can't deny the rise of denglish,
You're attempting to bolster the traditional dislike by Quebecers of the predominantly english speaking ROC with the rather weak linking to the historical discord between Germany and Great Britain; the one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I was making the point that Quebecers of the "separatiste" stripe use any and every opportunity to behave arrogantly towards les-anglais of Canadian origin but will operate completely differently (even politely) towards english speakers from other countries. That disconnect is just further proof that Quebecers feel a special disdain against the ROC while ignoring the fact; were they affiliated with any other country, there would be no special consideration given to Quebec's unigue culture but rather, it would have to thrive or even exist on it's own merits as would be expected if indeed the uniqueness is worthy of survival. The state of Louisiana in the U.S of A. is living proof of this.
I like the phrase the rest of canada as if the english french divide is our real biggest problem
Your comment of "english eroding powers" being well documented is perhaps the wrong choice of words as the expansion of the english language in any country does nothing to erode "powers" merely the popularity of whatever language it is displacing.

Erosion of popularity of one language in favour of another is a fact of history and will continue as long as immigration, migration and birth culture continue to migrate. Witness the growth of Spanish in the U.S., with various languages from the mid-east in France and indeed the U.K.
the influx of spanish into the states is an outlier atypical and is far from the norm.
Canada as well will have it's share of this happening in places like B.C. absorbing eastern asian citizens.

You may not like the word progress to describe this but nevertheless, it will happen regardless of all the discriminatory laws you put in place to attempt to stem the tide. You need not fear english in this century as much as the last as immigration will bring with it many challenges to ALL countries and the English language may be the least of them.
This is just ignorant, your not just stating an opinion, your making an opinion on the lines of ... well I have no faith in it, therefore your fundamental freedoms and rights should be ignored. It's pretty much a proven fact that effective government policy is not only capable but absolutely critical in preserving linguistic diversity. To undermine this truth is not only stereotypical, it's also highly inflammatory, the kind of talk that leaves people to wanna separate.
Were separation to become a reality; you may very well find that you ran from the henhouse straight into the fox's den.
If quebec left canada tomorrow, I'd be very worried, about the state of my home the atlantic. Quebec has proven to be a very useful moderator in this country, ironically even pushing the conservative party into a majority.

Quebec out of necessity needs protection of there language. This isn't entitlement no more than being free to vote is, this isn't something new, and is very consistently understood around the world. Even mandarin in china is supported by the state. To suggest that they should give up is absurd, it'd be far more logical for them to leave to country if forced into that situation. Of course if your gonna provide them with the ammo it will happen.

Anyhow this issue should of been taken car of a long time ago. French support outside of canada is forced by quebec it's ineffective, and more importantly shouldn't be necessary.

If you look at language learning in europe, asia, any developed state, language emmersion for students it's pretty much the norm. There's no valid reason ever given as to why not other than fear, other than some fallacy that it will heart the learning habbits of the child(opposite is actually true).
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:24 AM
 
18,333 posts, read 10,407,207 times
Reputation: 13399
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
If quebec left canada tomorrow, I'd be very worried, about the state of my home the atlantic. Quebec has proven to be a very useful moderator in this country, ironically even pushing the conservative party into a majority.

Quebec out of necessity needs protection of there language. This isn't entitlement no more than being free to vote is, this isn't something new, and is very consistently understood around the world. Even mandarin in china is supported by the state. To suggest that they should give up is absurd, it'd be far more logical for them to leave to country if forced into that situation. Of course if your gonna provide them with the ammo it will happen.

Anyhow this issue should of been taken car of a long time ago. French support outside of canada is forced by quebec it's ineffective, and more importantly shouldn't be necessary.

If you look at language learning in europe, asia, any developed state, language emmersion for students it's pretty much the norm. There's no valid reason ever given as to why not other than fear, other than some fallacy that it will heart the learning habbits of the child(opposite is actually true).
Once again you are making my point by entrenching the argument for culture maintenance on the foundation of language only. That is not a linear fact. Protecting a particular language with draconian and discriminatory laws does nothing to sustain a culture per-se.

We can agree that Quebec has provided many benefits to the entire make-up of Canada from very valuable pieces of legislation to the over-all "flavour" of this country being firstly one of compassion rather than greed. Quebec can take pride in all of those accomplishments.

If Quebec left Canada tomorrow, ALL of us should worry as some of us have since the dawn of the "separtiste" movement itself. As surely as the night follows the day; the ROC would be doomed as we know it. All of the petty, greed based grievances of yore would bubble to the surface in every one of the provinces and foment movements for departure from the confederation. I liken the illogical ravings of Parizeau to Lougheed's "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark" as two spices of the same recipe of bile.

If you consider the claims made by Quebec in terms of mistreatment by the ROC one need look no further than Newfoundland to witness the latest member being treated like a "red-headed-step-child" for it's entire duration in the country. They could have been making a far more convincing case for getting out of the family due to parental abuse than Quebec now can.

The separatiste movement has centered it's fight and made it's sole call to arms for the break-up of Canada around that language issue while ignoring to the larger extent the culture maintenance of the province not being EXCLUSIVELY that of language only.

The provinces culture is changing whether it likes it or not and will continue to do so regardless if French is the ONLY language allowed within it's borders in the future. This fact is immutable and irreversable around the world. Protecting the culture emodied in the narrow streets and antique buildings of the historicly significant city of Quebec is not dependant solely on maintenance of the language of French. Nor will leaving Canada in a hissy fit of "we'll show those Anglos our language will be maintained at all costs" provide one iota of protecting the culture from the normal ebb and flow of time itself. Rather, the direct opposite might actually be closer to the truth.

Language - Culture - two separate entities intertwined perhaps but not necessarily siamese twins!
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Mississippi Delta!
469 posts, read 603,633 times
Reputation: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
You do realize citing ireland makes it appear as you have no idea what your talking about. The irish language is on apart with a inukitut, hardly the most spoken language on the earth. You might wanna do a little correction before going any further.

I cited Ireland as an example of a nation that has done all it can to promote its "native" language yet the vast majority of its inhabitants speak English:

Status of the Irish language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe that isn't the perfect analogy. I don't think I need to be insulted for that!

It seems to me that if Quebec wants more French speakers, the best way to insure that future is to allow a lot of immigrants from countries with French as an official language, and discourage immigration from countries where it isn't. However, I don't think most people in former French colonies in Africa speak French on a regular basis. I think they prefer their own tribal languages.

As I understand it, Great Britain made some sort of bargain with the former French colonists in what is now Quebec after France lost the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) where they would preserve the French language and culture. At the same time, the British expelled residents of Acadia (now Nova Scotia) who moved south into the United States, especially New England and Louisiana.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:09 AM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,036,397 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Balducci View Post
I have read some articles that have led me to conclude that Quebec wants special treatment from the rest of Canada. I have read they are heavily subsidized although the province has plenty of wealth. As for those Quebeckers who talk about "sovereignty", do they really want independence or more of the same preferential treatment they have already been getting? Of course, French Canadians were discriminated against in the past, but they were never enslaved or subject to conquest or mass murder like some people in the United States.
As comedian Yvon Deschamps once said, “Quebecers know what they want, and what they want is an independent Quebec in a strong Canada.”
(Shamelessly snipped from the following article: A conservative love-in in Quebec - Canada - Macleans.ca.)
Quebec is a chameleon. If you figure out what the Québécois want, then please do let the rest of us know.

Last edited by maclock; 06-09-2012 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:11 AM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,036,397 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Balducci View Post
It seems to me that if Quebec wants more French speakers, the best way to insure that future is to allow a lot of immigrants from countries with French as an official language, and discourage immigration from countries where it isn't.
It does that right now and it has done so for over twenty years. In effect, Quebec has its own parallel immigration process.

Even then, there are only so many qualified Francophones to go around. Its fix? Pick allophones. This hasn't pleased some pure laine.

Last edited by maclock; 06-09-2012 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:57 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,781 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Once again you are making my point by entrenching the argument for culture maintenance on the foundation of language only. That is not a linear fact. Protecting a particular language with draconian and discriminatory laws does nothing to sustain a culture per-se.

We can agree that Quebec has provided many benefits to the entire make-up of Canada from very valuable pieces of legislation to the over-all "flavour" of this country being firstly one of compassion rather than greed. Quebec can take pride in all of those accomplishments.

If Quebec left Canada tomorrow, ALL of us should worry as some of us have since the dawn of the "separtiste" movement itself. As surely as the night follows the day; the ROC would be doomed as we know it. All of the petty, greed based grievances of yore would bubble to the surface in every one of the provinces and foment movements for departure from the confederation. I liken the illogical ravings of Parizeau to Lougheed's "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark" as two spices of the same recipe of bile.

If you consider the claims made by Quebec in terms of mistreatment by the ROC one need look no further than Newfoundland to witness the latest member being treated like a "red-headed-step-child" for it's entire duration in the country. They could have been making a far more convincing case for getting out of the family due to parental abuse than Quebec now can.

The separatiste movement has centered it's fight and made it's sole call to arms for the break-up of Canada around that language issue while ignoring to the larger extent the culture maintenance of the province not being EXCLUSIVELY that of language only.

The provinces culture is changing whether it likes it or not and will continue to do so regardless if French is the ONLY language allowed within it's borders in the future. This fact is immutable and irreversable around the world. Protecting the culture emodied in the narrow streets and antique buildings of the historicly significant city of Quebec is not dependant solely on maintenance of the language of French. Nor will leaving Canada in a hissy fit of "we'll show those Anglos our language will be maintained at all costs" provide one iota of protecting the culture from the normal ebb and flow of time itself. Rather, the direct opposite might actually be closer to the truth.

Language - Culture - two separate entities intertwined perhaps but not necessarily siamese twins!
Whatever dude culture or language it does not matter, I'm not even directly referring to culture itself but the right of the quebecois to protect their own. Making unrealistic statements like there language isn't important is a joke.

Your not doing anything with your posts but proving why there are so justify in there actions.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:02 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,781 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Balducci View Post
I cited Ireland as an example of a nation that has done all it can to promote its "native" language yet the vast majority of its inhabitants speak English:

Status of the Irish language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe that isn't the perfect analogy. I don't think I need to be insulted for that!
It's a horrible and dangerous analogy, so you might deserve some recourse for making such an uniformed statement.
It seems to me that if Quebec wants more French speakers, the best way to insure that future is to allow a lot of immigrants from countries with French as an official language, and discourage immigration from countries where it isn't. However, I don't think most people in former French colonies in Africa speak French on a regular basis. I think they prefer their own tribal languages.
again what do you know about the situation
As I understand it, Great Britain made some sort of bargain with the former French colonists in what is now Quebec after France lost the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) where they would preserve the French language and culture. At the same time, the British expelled residents of Acadia (now Nova Scotia) who moved south into the United States, especially New England and Louisiana.
What your point with the last bit
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:46 PM
 
18,333 posts, read 10,407,207 times
Reputation: 13399
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
Whatever dude culture or language it does not matter, I'm not even directly referring to culture itself but the right of the quebecois to protect their own. Making unrealistic statements like there language isn't important is a joke.

Your not doing anything with your posts but proving why there are so justify in there actions.
And there you have it! We've reached that point in this discussion where if you don't have complete agreement with your flawed logic you huff and puff with the "dude" descriptor and wrongly accuse me of saying somewhere in my posts that their language isn't important; show quote please.

And while you have not referred to their culture; THEY do. In every instance leading up to referendums it's been a never ending litany of "our culture is eroding, our culture is eroding"! This being the cry behind efforts to protect the language rights.

Their language is important ~ to them! Their culture is important ~ to ALL of us! Language is but one part of their culture but it is the main part that THEY are continually beating us about the ears over.

No joke intended. Regardless of your interpretations of my opinions they are of as much value as yours ~ $00.02
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:53 PM
 
734 posts, read 855,477 times
Reputation: 1576
Québec's geographic location is and always has been their ace-in-the-hole, the knife at the throat of the ROC.

now we wont stand for this much longer, I say at the 1st hint of weapons of mass destruction over there we carry out operation Québec Freedom

after we subdue them we plaster the place with ginormous english signs and make Don Cherry governor of Kwebec.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:30 AM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
1,328 posts, read 2,653,530 times
Reputation: 815
They want everyone in Vancouver to speak French. lol just kidding.
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