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Old 06-10-2012, 01:41 AM
 
34,419 posts, read 41,527,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
As comedian Yvon Deschamps once said, “Quebecers know what they want, and what they want is an independent Quebec in a strong Canada.”
By George i think Yvon's got it..


Personally i'd feel somewhat ashamed and manipulated if my culture was so weak and feeble that it needed such draconian language legislation to artificially prop it up,giving the populace no credit or self determination for maintaining a strong French presence in Quebec on the cultures own merits but assuming that without the nanny states strict supervision all French Quebecers would immediately turn into Americans or God forbid English Canadians!!

Advice for Quebec..You've been whining about the importance of your precious culture for a generation now why not grow a set and just separate already and you can then be happy living in your uni lingual French enclave with out the constant threat of suddenly turning into les Anglaise..eh!

Last edited by jambo101; 06-10-2012 at 01:59 AM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:22 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,475 times
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Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And there you have it! We've reached that point in this discussion where if you don't have complete agreement with your flawed logic you huff and puff with the "dude" descriptor and wrongly accuse me of saying somewhere in my posts that their language isn't important; show quote please.

And while you have not referred to their culture; THEY do. In every instance leading up to referendums it's been a never ending litany of "our culture is eroding, our culture is eroding"! This being the cry behind efforts to protect the language rights.

Their language is important ~ to them! Their culture is important ~ to ALL of us! Language is but one part of their culture but it is the main part that THEY are continually beating us about the ears over.

No joke intended. Regardless of your interpretations of my opinions they are of as much value as yours ~ $00.02

So you agree it's important to them, it's obvious that they need to protect it if it's important so what is your point, acting like there is something wrong with that when it fits right under the concept of democracy, where is the problem , your mad they're doing the obvious


Culture can be anything by definition, as culture is the adaptation of a people to their environment, since virtually everything we take in has to be adapted to by our brains, everything is can be culture.

Language however is one of the rarest forums of culture that is dependent on the state in order to survive.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:23 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
By George i think Yvon's got it..


Personally i'd feel somewhat ashamed and manipulated if my culture was so weak and feeble that it needed such draconian language legislation to artificially prop it up,giving the populace no credit or self determination for maintaining a strong French presence in Quebec on the cultures own merits but assuming that without the nanny states strict supervision all French Quebecers would immediately turn into Americans or God forbid English Canadians!!

Advice for Quebec..You've been whining about the importance of your precious culture for a generation now why not grow a set and just separate already and you can then be happy living in your uni lingual French enclave with out the constant threat of suddenly turning into les Anglaise..eh!
Huh no matter what language you speak it needs protection by the state, unless demographics or overwhelmingly on your side, and obviously in a western country this won't be the case.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:43 AM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,035,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
Huh no matter what language you speak it needs protection by the state, unless demographics or overwhelmingly on your side, and obviously in a western country this won't be the case.
I'm afraid that I disagree with you.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
I'm afraid that I disagree with you.
Cite some solid examples, where in a western birthrate situation where this is the case.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:57 AM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,035,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
Cite some solid examples, where in a western birthrate situation where this is the case.
Rather, why don't you do that? The international marketplace has picked a lingua franca for us, and that lingua franca happens to be English. Who knows what it'll be 100 years from now? It could be any of Mandarin, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Spanish, or Portuguese. English could also remain the lingua franca. It's anyone's guess.

If people want their language to survive and to thrive, then they have to want for it to do so independent of government meddling and intervention. No amount of government regulation or fiat will ensure such survival or will encourage languages to flourish. Quebec's language laws are inimical to free expression and to freedom generally. The only thing that they seem to have accomplished is to frustrate and/or to prevent the centuries-old English language minority from living and working in its own mother tongue and to stop many parents from educating their children in the more dominant of Canada's two official languages. These laws are severely alienating, they are counterproductive, and they are antagonistic.

Can you understand how crazy such laws must appear to multinational corporations when they consider where to set up shop in Canada? When combined with higher taxes, a massive bureaucracy, widespread and systematic corruption, and crumbling infrastructure, there's little wonder that Canada's other big provinces -- provinces that also suffer from their own degrees of excessive taxation, bureaucratic bloat, corruption, and underinvestment in infrastructure -- have been growing at Quebec's expense for over 50 years.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:25 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
Rather, why don't you do that? The international marketplace has picked a lingua franca for us, and that lingua franca happens to be English. Who knows what it'll be 100 years from now? It could be any of Mandarin, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Spanish, or Portuguese. English could also remain the lingua franca. It's anyone's guess.
Or the far more logical assumption that governments will continue to protect and promote the use of their languages within the domestic everyday use of their people.
If people want their language to survive and to thrive, then they have to want for it to do so independent of government meddling and intervention.

No amount of government regulation or fiat will ensure such survival or will encourage languages to flourish.
But this actually works this is the actual history of virtually every major language on the globe, government intervention is the norm. Germany's language was though unification in the 1800's, same with italy, frances, russia,s mandarin in china, and the list goes on.
Quebec's language laws are inimical to free expression and to freedom generally.
So instead you rather restrict the power of the people to have there own democracy work in there direct interest, what kind of logic is that. So I don't have to pay taxes no more
The only thing that they seem to have accomplished is to frustrate and/or to prevent the centuries-old English language minority from living and working in its own mother tongue and to stop many parents from educating their children in the more dominant of Canada's two official languages. These laws are severely alienating, they are counterproductive, and they are antagonistic.
looking at western europe, it's easy to say the population of quebec would be pretty much like the netherlands where nearly the entire population speaks english, furthermore, because they are in a country with mostly anglophones, they'd have to have preference for that english in schools.
Can you understand how crazy such laws must appear to multinational corporations when they consider where to set up shop in Canada?
Yeah because that place called europe is just non stop craziness
When combined with higher taxes, a massive bureaucracy, widespread and systematic corruption, and crumbling infrastructure, there's little wonder that Canada's other big provinces -- provinces that also suffer from their own degrees of excessive taxation, bureaucratic bloat, corruption, and underinvestment in infrastructure -- have been growing at Quebec's expense for over 50 years.
Would you stop with this game, even ontario(a reciever) is now starting to have trouble with how the resource economy has been distorting there economy, and they're the worst offender by a long shot.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:21 AM
 
18,303 posts, read 10,393,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
So you agree it's important to them, it's obvious that they need to protect it if it's important so what is your point, acting like there is something wrong with that when it fits right under the concept of democracy, where is the problem , your mad they're doing the obvious


Culture can be anything by definition, as culture is the adaptation of a people to their environment, since virtually everything we take in has to be adapted to by our brains, everything is can be culture.

Language however is one of the rarest forums of culture that is dependent on the state in order to survive.
Of course I agree it's important to them; I've never claimed otherwise.

You might consider Peanut Butter important but don't expect me to get all misty-eyed and supply you with a case a month because you claim you can't live without it.

You can't seem to grasp the concept of what's important to them having little relevance to others, either in Canda or the rest of the world for that matter. We've been busily accommodating them at every turn because of our repugnance at the only alternative they throw on the table. That reluctance on our part however, has been far outweighed by the gradual perception there can be no satisfying this spoiled relative. Ultimately they have poisoned the pool to the point that the ROC is now prepared to answer their cry of "pony up or we leave" with a resounding "WHATEVER".

Now to the point that you also seem to be having trouble grasping; The ROC or the world don't give a rat's patoot about them maintaining their culture, we are ambivilant about it. We do not see the need to entrench laws or assign costs to the ROC.

We do not see the point of any claims made by a minority that it's imperative on the ROC to acquiesce completely to their point of view at the cost of common sense, mutual respect, monetary, with the only option seeming to be "once we have exhausted your willingness to pay bribes, we will still claim you care nothing about us and we're leaving regardless".

This is very much akin to the spoiled teen-ager refusing to accept the terms of the household requiring they clean their room occasionally so threatens to and perhaps even eventually leaves and then wonders who'se going to do the washing, ironing, pay the utilities, provide the car, the TV, the i-pod, the cel-phone data-plan, all provided under the umbrella of the larger economy of the household accounts.

Other's comments, on this long and thorny issue whose beginnings I expect commenced long before you were even born, are just as relavant as your rather childish assertion that the ROC should just suck it up and bend over for every missive issuing from the churlish bastion of the separatiste quarter because, after all; their culture demands and deserves it beyond all reasonable arguments stating otherwise.

You keep up with this stuff of arguing for; we answer: "why" then you state "because". Does this silliness work for you in your daily life exchanges with real humans face-to-face?
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:33 AM
 
18,303 posts, read 10,393,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
Would you stop with this game, even ontario(a reciever) is now starting to have trouble with how the resource economy has been distorting there economy, and they're the worst offender by a long shot.
Oooopsy! Ontario; that "worst offender" has been a net payer into Quebec's pocket since the inception of the equalization formulae.

Ontario's economy is now hurting due to the chickens of Free Trade now all flying home to roost with Ontario manufacturing based economy watching all those multi-national jobs going off-shore; something all of those Quebec based Prime Ministers failed to consider when they were singing when "Irsh Eyes are Smiling" in the grand jesture of friendship with the burgeoning export receptor to our south.

Ontario now being on the receiving end of the "have not" formulae sure is bringing out the crackpots who were quite willing to accept it's largesse when it was the economic engine for decades.

You seem to need to cast a villain in this little pity festival of yours and perhaps you should look closer to home before casting your net into already over-fished waters.

How secure is your little corner of the 19th century?
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:09 AM
 
396 posts, read 730,475 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Oooopsy! Ontario; that "worst offender" has been a net payer into Quebec's pocket since the inception of the equalization formulae.

Ontario's economy is now hurting due to the chickens of Free Trade now all flying home to roost with Ontario manufacturing based economy watching all those multi-national jobs going off-shore; something all of those Quebec based Prime Ministers failed to consider when they were singing when "Irsh Eyes are Smiling" in the grand jesture of friendship with the burgeoning export receptor to our south.

Ontario now being on the receiving end of the "have not" formulae sure is bringing out the crackpots who were quite willing to accept it's largesse when it was the economic engine for decades.

You seem to need to cast a villain in this little pity festival of yours and perhaps you should look closer to home before casting your net into already over-fished waters.

How secure is your little corner of the 19th century?
Give a rest I could care less of caring about a villian, you brought attitudes etc, in to this, I was simply responding to that line of thinking your turning quebec into a villian and your driving in emotional content like villans. My point was a large part of the equalization payments was to stablize the growth of the canadian economy.

Alberta has a resource dependent economy as well as newfoundland.
Vancouver has an economy driven in part by real estate, which can potentially can be the start of a significant property bubble. Toronto too can be part of this problem. This was all I was trying to say, and I really could care less about this discussion.
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