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Old 06-19-2013, 10:08 AM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,635,795 times
Reputation: 1166

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
I'm not thinking too much into anything.

I don't see any reason why I would be.

My posts are pretty clear already. I don't like to state the obvious.
Yeah, this conversation got very tiring. I don't see any reason to continue.

It feels like masturbation without orgasm. I think, we should end it.

Good luck to you.

Last edited by movingwiththewind; 06-19-2013 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:44 AM
 
292 posts, read 401,935 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
- You do not consider Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, etc American companies because they employ foreigners? So, by that same logic, Honda and Toyota are not Japanese car companies because they make some of their cars in Ontario.
As I said, what does it mean to be an "American" company? To have ones HQ in the US? Companies do not have citizenship, just location. In what way is an "American" company that hires foreign workers, builds stuff in China, and keeps their money in Ireland different than a "German" company that hires foreign workers, builds stuff in China, and keeps their money in Ireland?

Quote:
This quote reeks of arrogance and ignorance. This reminds me of the chant the Republican party (Mitt Romney) was using during the 2012 elections: We Built That!
One of the most pathetically wrong analogies I've ever seen.
Again, you do realize that Apple, Google, and Microsoft are so successful precisely because they avoid paying US taxes, because they take advantage of the H1B1 visas to hire foreign workers, and because they can make their products in China, right?

A country cannot be innovative, because it is nothing more than a geopolitical entity. Some of its citizens can be, but that's only partially thanks to the country. Especially a country like the US that spends relatively little on the welfare of its citizens. In the US, it's all about private enterprise, not the government.
Quote:
The reason why you have disproportionately large number of inventions and innovations is not because individuals in the US are smarter than individuals elsewhere! It is because of factors like the education system (best universities) and an economy that encourages entrepreneurship (free market, venture capital).
The reason why the US has more inventions is because there are more people, many of which immigrants (Remember 40% of the top 500 companies in the US were founded by immigrants or their children).

The K-12 education system in the US is absolutely abysmal, and those who get into the top universities are merely the cream of the crap. American universities are among the best because they have plenty of money since they can charge students whatever they want. It's much more impressive to see universities in the top 100 list from countries that charge much less to nothing.
Also, the US economy is no longer all that "free," and that disproves your other statement:
Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,703 posts, read 4,674,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
In terms of living conditions for the average citizen, yes.

The history of computers and the internet is quite complicated, but neither invention can be attributed to the US alone.
Also, remember that a lot of the components in today's electronics are designed in Asia.

All those companies employ foreigners, use foreign technology, and keep their money abroad. So I'm not sure what's exactly "American" about them. They have their HQ in the US, but that's about it.


Record-breakers: which countries are best at what? - Telegraph

The US is a big country, hence the high number of medical inventions.

The US has a lot of sh!tty universities along with the good ones though.

Keeps the world safe? Hahahaha, right, more like starts useless wars for oil.
Also, foreign aid per capita is pretty poor:
List of governments by development aid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you're forgetting that many of those things would not be possible without foreign technology. I'll quote another post of mine

http://www.city-data.com/forum/30070955-post30.html

I don't see "The US" as having done much to improve the world. I do recognize the contributions of individuals and companies, regardless of nationality and location.

The US economy is in pretty bad shape. Research has been moving to other countries, especially Asian countries. But ultimately, it's not any one country that innovates, it's, again, individuals, regardless of where they are.


I'm not thinking too much into anything.

If the intent is to compare the condition of the average citizen in the two countries, than the comparison is valid. Again, if you want to say that States X, Y, Z are better than average and provide stats to prove it, that's fine too.


I don't see any reason why I would be.


My posts are pretty clear already. I don't like to state the obvious.


I think I have:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/30042908-post71.html
Some valid points there, but you cannot downplay things like Google, Apple, etc. Yes their headquarters are here in the US and they have SOME offices and production in other countries now, but the HQ for these companies are where the development and innovation come from. Those offices are where the brains are located. For example all iPods, iPads, iPhones, etc. are designed and developed by Apple's main office in California- it's only once the development is done that plans are sent to the factories in China to have millions of them actually built. Huge difference there. This is the same for all of these other companies.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:29 AM
 
292 posts, read 401,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
Some valid points there, but you cannot downplay things like Google, Apple, etc. Yes their headquarters are here in the US and they have SOME offices and production in other countries now, but the HQ for these companies are where the development and innovation come from. Those offices are where the brains are located. For example all iPods, iPads, iPhones, etc. are designed and developed by Apple's main office in California- it's only once the development is done that plans are sent to the factories in China to have millions of them actually built. Huge difference there. This is the same for all of these other companies.
Apple's recent stuff was mostly designed by Jonathan Ive, a Brit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive

Google Glasses was in part developed by a German guy
Sebastian Thrun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention that the iPod and iPhone were not the first of their kind (there were Japanese mp3 players and smartphones before), so they're not entirely different ideas, and that many of their components are designed outside the US (like the ARM processors and the batteries).

We're talking about people who were born and raised in other countries, but then came to the US. It was not the US that made them innovative.

So giving a company a nationality is pretty silly, considering the global economy we live in. If you want to use it to describe where it's HQ is, that's fine, but using it as proof that a country is "innovative" is wrong.

What I'm saying here is that innovation does not come from countries, it comes from individuals. Obviously the environment that a country creates can greatly help in this regard, but ultimately it's up to the individual to take advantage of it. And there are plenty of people - the vast majority really - who don't.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:43 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
As I said, what does it mean to be an "American" company? To have ones HQ in the US? Companies do not have citizenship, just location. In what way is an "American" company that hires foreign workers, builds stuff in China, and keeps their money in Ireland different than a "German" company that hires foreign workers, builds stuff in China, and keeps their money in Ireland?
What makes Blackberry a Canadian company? What makes BMW a German company? Putting "American company" in quotes does not simply negate years and years of this convention. Moreover, you seem smart enough to know the economic reasons behind companies being American or German.

I mean this logic is so lame that I don't even know if I should even bother debating it?!?! The other day I was watching a pro-immigration ad on American TV and it was talking about having foreign born people working in the Obama administration. So now that you have immigrants (foreign workers) and kids of immigrants working in the White House --- it is not American anymore?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
One of the most pathetically wrong analogies I've ever seen.
Again, you do realize that Apple, Google, and Microsoft are so successful precisely because they avoid paying US taxes, because they take advantage of the H1B1 visas to hire foreign workers, and because they can make their products in China, right?
Well you are really digging your own grave now. It is the US government that has created conditions (good or bad) that allow companies like Apple to avoid paying taxes or allows them to take their business abroad. Now this would not happen in many countries and that's why there isn't an Apple and Microsoft in many countries. And FYI, Google's main functions are all solely based in the US and they do not manufacture anything in China (yet).

H1B visas were created by the US government. Again, the government creating conditions to attract the best and the brightest to the US. Why don't other countries do this? US gets the STEM graduates from all over the world because they have MORE tech jobs than they can handle. This is very similar to Canadian farms hiring seasonal workers from other countries ..... it doesn't take anything away from Canadian farming. The Canadian Wine remains Canadian despite the fact that some South American farmer plucked the grapes.

You must know Elon Musk, a South African born genius who spent some years in Canada. But finally came to the USA and created behemoths like PayPal, Tesla Motors, and now SpaceX (if you dont know him you should look him up). He has clearly stated that he would not have been able to do any of the following in any other country except the US:
(1) Billion $ Paypal
(2) Innovative car technology, Tesla
(3) Space exploration with SpaceX in partnership with NASA and the Feds

You talk is just talk. And you might say ridiculous things like: "40% of the top 500 companies in the US were founded by immigrants or their children" ..... without nothing the obvious irony in your statement(s). There is a reason why these immigrants succeeded in the USA and not in their home countries. The US system created the conditions necessary for the success of many of these individuals and companies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
A country cannot be innovative, because it is nothing more than a geopolitical entity. Some of its citizens can be, but that's only partially thanks to the country. Especially a country like the US that spends relatively little on the welfare of its citizens. In the US, it's all about private enterprise, not the government.
When did I say that a country can be innovative? You cannot simply misquote me to make a sly remark like that. I simply said that a country can create the conditions that encourage innovation and growth. You gave example yourself: H1B visas, tax codes, best universities, etc etc....

And finally, you would be extremely naive to think that people like Bill Gates, Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, etc would not call their respective companies American.Here we have Eric Schmidt saying that Google is an American Company. Who are you to deny that?
Eric Schmidt: What Makes Google an American Company
[dailymotion]xgihm6_eric-schmidt-what-makes-google-an-american-company_news[/dailymotion]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgihm6_eric-schmidt-what-makes-google-an-american-company_news#.UcHn7PnVAZQ[/url]
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:49 PM
 
292 posts, read 401,935 times
Reputation: 270
*Sigh*
I'm not going to address each individual point anymore because this has turned into a state-the-obvious contest.
My point was not that a country cannot create an environment that favors innovation, but that innovation does not have nationality, regardless of where it happens. Giving a nationality to a company is just as stupid.
The rest of the stuff I don't disagree with.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:12 PM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,635,795 times
Reputation: 1166
*Sigh*, as well

Last edited by movingwiththewind; 06-19-2013 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:48 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,996,399 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
*Sigh*
I'm not going to address each individual point anymore because this has turned into a state-the-obvious contest.
My point was not that a country cannot create an environment that favors innovation, but that innovation does not have nationality, regardless of where it happens. Giving a nationality to a company is just as stupid.
The rest of the stuff I don't disagree with.
Hah .. it was nice debating with you too

Giving a nationality to anything (people, mountains, lakes, etc) is also stupid. But, it is convention!

THE END
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:58 PM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,635,795 times
Reputation: 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Hah .. it was nice debating with you too

Giving a nationality to anything (people, mountains, lakes, etc) is also stupid. But, it is convention!

THE END
He will respond to your post and it will go forever!
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Chicago(Northside)
3,719 posts, read 6,099,062 times
Reputation: 1651
I know i just gave up on Paparappa, it seems he has a excuse for everything for example i would say Apple is an american company then he would turn around and say Steve Jobs grandfather was Britain which means the company is British.
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