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Old 06-19-2013, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Chicago(Northside)
3,719 posts, read 6,113,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paparappa View Post
*sigh*
i'm not going to address each individual point anymore because this has turned into a state-the-obvious contest.
My point was not that a country cannot create an environment that favors innovation, but that innovation does not have nationality, regardless of where it happens. Giving a nationality to a company is just as stupid.
The rest of the stuff i don't disagree with.
lmfao...so your saying that Apple isn't a american company, im sorry but you're insane.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Chicago(Northside)
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Difference between US and Canadian economy?
America has a much large and stronger economy then canada, they are both doing good.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:08 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 2,001,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cali3448893 View Post
I know i just gave up on Paparappa, it seems he has a excuse for everything for example i would say Apple is an american company then he would turn around and say Steve Jobs grandfather was Britain which means the company is British.
.. exactly what I was thinking. He might even say that glass and plastic were invented in Mesopotamia (~3500 B.C.) ... and we all know that glass and plastic are key components of the iPhone.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:10 PM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,642,342 times
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Canada and the US forever!

Top Countries On OECD Better Life Index - Business Insider
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,704 posts, read 4,687,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
Apple's recent stuff was mostly designed by Jonathan Ive, a Brit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive

Google Glasses was in part developed by a German guy
Sebastian Thrun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention that the iPod and iPhone were not the first of their kind (there were Japanese mp3 players and smartphones before), so they're not entirely different ideas, and that many of their components are designed outside the US (like the ARM processors and the batteries).

We're talking about people who were born and raised in other countries, but then came to the US. It was not the US that made them innovative.

So giving a company a nationality is pretty silly, considering the global economy we live in. If you want to use it to describe where it's HQ is, that's fine, but using it as proof that a country is "innovative" is wrong.

What I'm saying here is that innovation does not come from countries, it comes from individuals. Obviously the environment that a country creates can greatly help in this regard, but ultimately it's up to the individual to take advantage of it. And there are plenty of people - the vast majority really - who don't.
Regarding certain components being designed elsewhere, that really doesn't make sense, of course most products are made up of smaller products that may or may not already exist and may or may not be designed elsewhere. The iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc. are products dreamed up at Apple, by workers of that company in their California office. That's the fact, it doesn't matter what the race or previous nationality of some of the individuals were or that some microchips inside were designed elsewhere or that the glass used on the screen is an already existing product.
A closer to home example for me is Boeing. They did not invent the very first airplane, nor did they invent or design the tires that their 747 or 787 aircraft use, but yet that does not at all diminish the fact that they are designing and building some industry leading passenger aircraft that are used by almost every airline in the world. You can't negate that by saying "well they aren't really doing anything special because they didn't invent the tires, or the carpet used in the cabin, or the gauges used in the cockpit, etc.

It doesn't matter that some of the engineers at Boeing may be of Japanese or British or Canadian, or whatever descent- the fact is they are now here and are now working for Boeing, which is an American company.

Sure it's not the government of the country that is directly creating these things, but the COUNTRY is more than the government- it's the people that live within its borders, it is the ideas those people come up with and the companies they start that then come up with big ideas and big products such as Microsoft, Apple, Boeing, etc.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago(Northside)
3,719 posts, read 6,113,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
Regarding certain components being designed elsewhere, that really doesn't make sense, of course most products are made up of smaller products that may or may not already exist and may or may not be designed elsewhere. The iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc. are products dreamed up at Apple, by workers of that company in their California office. That's the fact, it doesn't matter what the race or previous nationality of some of the individuals were or that some microchips inside were designed elsewhere or that the glass used on the screen is an already existing product.
A closer to home example for me is Boeing. They did not invent the very first airplane, nor did they invent or design the tires that their 747 or 787 aircraft use, but yet that does not at all diminish the fact that they are designing and building some industry leading passenger aircraft that are used by almost every airline in the world. You can't negate that by saying "well they aren't really doing anything special because they didn't invent the tires, or the carpet used in the cabin, or the gauges used in the cockpit, etc.

It doesn't matter that some of the engineers at Boeing may be of Japanese or British or Canadian, or whatever descent- the fact is they are now here and are now working for Boeing, which is an American company.

Sure it's not the government of the country that is directly creating these things, but the COUNTRY is more than the government- it's the people that live within its borders, it is the ideas those people come up with and the companies they start that then come up with big ideas and big products such as Microsoft, Apple, Boeing, etc.
Paparapa just cant admit something good about america.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:23 AM
 
292 posts, read 402,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Hah .. it was nice debating with you too

Giving a nationality to anything (people, mountains, lakes, etc) is also stupid. But, it is convention!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I don't care about conventions. I'm talking about reality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
.. exactly what I was thinking. He might even say that glass and plastic were invented in Mesopotamia (~3500 B.C.) ... and we all know that glass and plastic are key components of the iPhone.
I was talking about materials, but components. There's a difference between glass and a certain type of battery or processor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
You can't negate that by saying "well they aren't really doing anything special because they didn't invent the tires, or the carpet used in the cabin, or the gauges used in the cockpit, etc.
I'm not negating their innovation. I'm saying it's reliant on many other innovations, from a number of other countries, hence it's not really "American" or "German" or "Swiss."
Quote:
It doesn't matter that some of the engineers at Boeing may be of Japanese or British or Canadian, or whatever descent- the fact is they are now here and are now working for Boeing, which is an American company.
It's only considered an American company because it's HQ are currently in the US. But it does not belong to the US, nor does it not have permission to move. Hence, rather than being an American company, it's simply a company with its HQ in America. In a free market, companies do not have nationalities.
Quote:
Sure it's not the government of the country that is directly creating these things, but the COUNTRY is more than the government- it's the people that live within its borders, it is the ideas those people come up with and the companies they start that then come up with big ideas and big products such as Microsoft, Apple, Boeing, etc.
But we've just discussed how the ideas don't always come from people within the geographical borders of that country. And how it's silly to say that those idea start belonging to a certain nationality if they are implemented in a certain nation.

Nationality itself is merely a human construct designed to ensure the financial and social stability of a group of people within an internationally recognized geographical location. The nationality of people, companies, or products is ultimately irrelevant.

Ideas come from people, regardless of nationality. Assigning a nationality to everything is just patriotic BS designed to instigate irrational pride in people.

Oooh, BMW is German, and I'm German, so although I have absolutely nothing to do with BMW at all, I'm proud of being German and of BMW!


Quote:
Originally Posted by cali3448893 View Post
Paparapa just cant admit something good about america.
Except this doesn't apply just to America, but to all nations.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,727 posts, read 8,817,501 times
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Interesting points by all. I worked in a company ( I'm retired now ) that used to be proudly Canadian. Employees took pride in the fact as well. In house innovation was a priority but of course buying equipment and other needed items from outside of Canada was done when needed. In those days if you had asked if the company was Canadian I wouldn't have hesitated to answer yes.
Today? The company now has shown absolutely no loyalty to Canada or it's Canadian employees. Thousands of jobs outsourced. The employees that work there, especially younger ones, don't have the same sense of loyalty since the company shows no loyalty to them.
They do not have customers outside of Canada so it's not like they grew with branch offices around the world. That's a different story.
Like so many other companies, they use people's pride in their propaganda so that you have the illusion that you are buying American or Canadian, and they are laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:32 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 2,001,828 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paparappa View Post
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I don't care about conventions. I'm talking about reality.
What does that even mean? We assign nationalities to mountains (Swiss Alps, Canadian Rockies) ... isn't that a reality? We assign nationalities to newborn children based on their place of birth. So what is so irrational about assigning a nationality to a company? What about the following statement is so unacceptable to you? "Apple and Microsoft are American companies"

Quote:
I was talking about materials, but components. There's a difference between glass and a certain type of battery or processor.
Glass and Plastic were invented in 3500 BCE in Mesopotamia and for that period, were great innovations. Infact discovery of materials like glass, plastic, iron are much more historically significant than incremental increases in battery technology (from a 3hr life to 4hr life). You are now just drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

Quote:
I'm not negating their innovation. I'm saying it's reliant on many other innovations, from a number of other countries, hence it's not really "American" or "German" or "Swiss."
Exactly, just like batteries and processors were reliant on Mesopotamia for glass and plastic. You are now making circular arguments.

Quote:
It's only considered an American company because it's HQ are currently in the US. But it does not belong to the US, nor does it not have permission to move. Hence, rather than being an American company, it's simply a company with its HQ in America. In a free market, companies do not have nationalities.
But they do. Apple is American. Blackberry is Canadian. BMW is German. The owners, workers, CEOs of all of these companies disagree with you.

Quote:
But we've just discussed how the ideas don't always come from people within the geographical borders of that country. And how it's silly to say that those idea start belonging to a certain nationality if they are implemented in a certain nation.
You said that Sebastian Thrun, a German worked on the Google Glass idea. But you left out the part that he did his post-grad research at Carnegie Mellon and Stanford - both TOP U.S. universities. He clearly did not come up with Google X Labs in Germany? So even in this example (of yours), geography (university and company) have played a huge role. If the environment at CMU/ Stanford and Google were irrelevant, Sebastian Thrun could have come up with this idea even in Germany or even Somalia.

Quote:
Nationality itself is merely a human construct designed to ensure the financial and social stability of a group of people within an internationally recognized geographical location.
Such blanket statements make no sense and do not strengthen your argument. Society and Marriage are human constructs designed to ensure .... (fill in the blank). But that does not make ideas like Society and Marriage irrelevant.

Quote:
Oooh, BMW is German, and I'm German, so although I have absolutely nothing to do with BMW at all, I'm proud of being German and of BMW!
What you describe is called altruistic behavior and is well studied in evolutionary biology (altruism). We all feel a sense of pride when someone associated with us succeeds --- the closer they are to us, the more joy we feel. I feel happy when the Toronto Blue Jays win a game, I obviously have nothing to do with the team or their performance. Yet I feel a sense of joy every time they win.
If I live in Toronto and someone from Toronto finds the cure for cancer, I will be very proud. Yes, this might be considered irrational behaviour by some, but then by the same logic concepts like love, kindness and charity are also irrational. It is just how most humans behave. And that's a fact.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:55 PM
 
292 posts, read 402,650 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
What does that even mean? We assign nationalities to mountains (Swiss Alps, Canadian Rockies) ... isn't that a reality? We assign nationalities to newborn children based on their place of birth. So what is so irrational about assigning a nationality to a company? What about the following statement is so unacceptable to you? "Apple and Microsoft are American companies"
The fact that companies are not people, and therefore don't have nationality. A corporation cannot commit treason.
Quote:
Glass and Plastic were invented in 3500 BCE in Mesopotamia and for that period, were great innovations. Infact discovery of materials like glass, plastic, iron are much more historically significant than incremental increases in battery technology (from a 3hr life to 4hr life). You are now just drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.
Exactly, just like batteries and processors were reliant on Mesopotamia for glass and plastic. You are now making circular arguments.
Ok. This does not weaken my argument that innovation does not have nationality. If anything, it strengthens it.
Quote:
But they do. Apple is American. Blackberry is Canadian. BMW is German. The owners, workers, CEOs of all of these companies disagree with you.
What the owners and workers think is irrelevant. Reality is what matters. Until companies have a legal responsibility to be loyal to a country the way citizens do, they don't have nationality.

Quote:
You said that Sebastian Thrun, a German worked on the Google Glass idea. But you left out the part that he did his post-grad research at Carnegie Mellon and Stanford - both TOP U.S. universities. He clearly did not come up with Google X Labs in Germany? So even in this example (of yours), geography (university and company) have played a huge role. If the environment at CMU/ Stanford and Google were irrelevant, Sebastian Thrun could have come up with this idea even in Germany or even Somalia.
The fact that he got into Stanford in the first place means he was already highly competent. We do not know whether or not the would've developed a similar technology in Germany. That's pure speculation.

Quote:
Such blanket statements make no sense and do not strengthen your argument. Society and Marriage are human constructs designed to ensure .... (fill in the blank). But that does not make ideas like Society and Marriage irrelevant.
Of course it does. I explained that nationality is a manmade construct, and not an inherent quality, to show you why innovation does not have nationality.
Quote:
What you describe is called altruistic behavior and is well studied in evolutionary biology (altruism).
Actually, it's called idiocy. There's no evolutionary purpose whatsoever in being altruistic towards a bunch of people whom you don't know merely based on the fact that they happen to have the same citizenship, a manmade concept. Humans didn't get this far by caring about everyone, certainly not by being nationalistic.
Quote:
We all feel a sense of pride when someone associated with us succeeds --- the closer they are to us, the more joy we feel. I feel happy when the Toronto Blue Jays win a game, I obviously have nothing to do with the team or their performance. Yet I feel a sense of joy every time they win.
That is incredibly stupid. There's no reason why you would feel "proud" that a bunch of people who have absolutely nothing to do with you achieve something. The reason why you feel happy when a sports team wins a game is because they entertain you and that's why you want them to win.
Quote:
If I live in Toronto and someone from Toronto finds the cure for cancer, I will be very proud. Yes, this might be considered irrational behaviour by some, but then by the same logic concepts like love, kindness and charity are also irrational. It is just how most humans behave. And that's a fact.
Hahahaha, so you're saying that since most people are irrational, it's ok for you to be too?

There's nothing natural about feeling proud if Toronto finds the cure for cancer. You've only been brainwashed into thinking that you're supposed to because it's convenient for people to believe stuff like this.

Love is a chemical reaction that cannot be controlled. Hence it can hardly be called irrational (although people can do some pretty stupid things in the name of "love").
Kindness is not irrational if it makes you feel good.
Charity is not always irrational, depending on the kind and purpose why it's done.
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