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Old 06-11-2013, 05:26 PM
 
18,433 posts, read 10,490,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
You know that his "confession" was obtained under torture and threats of gang rape?

“I Lost My Eyes” – Omar Khadr Interrogations at Guantanamo Bay « Antiwar.com Blog
I KNOW no such thing and neither do you. He belongs to a group of people who are very familiar with what needs to be said to the press to garner any and all kinds of sympathy available.

I do not accept everything on it's face but I do accept the facts he left a safe bastion in Canada and when next we hear of him he's been shot by troops for taking part in a firefight with the result an American soldier was killed by a grenade thrown by him. If not him, who then?

Do I believe a military incursion into that chit hole of a country was justified? NOPE. Do I believe the minute the U.S. ENTIRELY removes itself, the place will revert to the cess-pool of tribal fifedoms all maintaining their grip at the ;point of a gun as it did before? YEP.

Your "victim" was valiantly striving to hasten that process to what end, so he and his pappa could be sitting at the right hand of the toughest chieftain in the region? You paint a rosy picture of a kid fighting for his country while I can paint the opposite scenario of a kid willingly taking part in a struggle to get himself rewarded with hero accolades from the next brutal dictator de-facto.

Take your pick. I've already made my choice.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I KNOW no such thing and neither do you. He belongs to a group of people who are very familiar with what needs to be said to the press to garner any and all kinds of sympathy available.
Anyone in Guantanamo for 10 years did not provide a freely given confession. The very fact that he was there for 10 years attests to that.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
I KNOW no such thing and neither do you. He belongs to a group of people who are very familiar with what needs to be said to the press to garner any and all kinds of sympathy available.

I do not accept everything on it's face but I do accept the facts he left a safe bastion in Canada and when next we hear of him he's been shot by troops for taking part in a firefight with the result an American soldier was killed by a grenade thrown by him. If not him, who then?

Do I believe a military incursion into that chit hole of a country was justified? NOPE. Do I believe the minute the U.S. ENTIRELY removes itself, the place will revert to the cess-pool of tribal fifedoms all maintaining their grip at the ;point of a gun as it did before? YEP.

Your "victim" was valiantly striving to hasten that process to what end, so he and his pappa could be sitting at the right hand of the toughest chieftain in the region? You paint a rosy picture of a kid fighting for his country while I can paint the opposite scenario of a kid willingly taking part in a struggle to get himself rewarded with hero accolades from the next brutal dictator de-facto.

Take your pick. I've already made my choice.
Maybe there are no good guys in the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the Americans sure aren't the good guys either.
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Old 06-11-2013, 08:08 PM
 
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BruSan, are you trying to somehow justify the jailing without due process of a Canadian citizen who is a child? And are you saying that a Canadian citizen somehow should never return to their country of birth for an extended visit or even to live there again? The law disagrees with you on that point - a citizen is free to leave at any time, and does not give up his citizenship by doing so. That being said, we are talking about a CHILD here. By your logic, it's okay to jail a child for a decade without a fair trial.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarp View Post
BruSan, are you trying to somehow justify the jailing without due process of a Canadian citizen who is a child? And are you saying that a Canadian citizen somehow should never return to their country of birth for an extended visit or even to live there again? The law disagrees with you on that point - a citizen is free to leave at any time, and does not give up his citizenship by doing so. That being said, we are talking about a CHILD here. By your logic, it's okay to jail a child for a decade without a fair trial.

I agree. He's a Canadian citizen; did the Canadian government do anything, in terms of assistance, checking on his welfare while imprisoned in Guantanamo, verifying the circumstances of his arrest, or protesting the imprisonment of a child without due process? I will have to read more about it, but as has been noted many times, confessions in Guantanamo were regularly obtained under extreme torture, as attested to by survivors, former personnel, and U.S. government reports.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:57 AM
 
18,433 posts, read 10,490,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
Anyone in Guantanamo for 10 years did not provide a freely given confession. The very fact that he was there for 10 years attests to that.
And you know this how, exactly ~ ~ ??
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:28 AM
 
18,433 posts, read 10,490,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarp View Post
BruSan, are you trying to somehow justify the jailing without due process of a Canadian citizen who is a child? And are you saying that a Canadian citizen somehow should never return to their country of birth for an extended visit or even to live there again? The law disagrees with you on that point - a citizen is free to leave at any time, and does not give up his citizenship by doing so. That being said, we are talking about a CHILD here. By your logic, it's okay to jail a child for a decade without a fair trial.
Tarp; I don't have to justify anything at all.

A Canadian citizen is and should be, free to return to their country of birth any time they wish. Where in my posts did I even infer otherwise? Free to join in a conflict, not so much. Free to join the U.N. declared terrorist organization, arm themselves with hand grenades and kill someone, NOPE!

I don't give a rat's azz if he's a Canadian citizen or not. As if that should endow someone with special immunity to go to a recognized active conflict zone take part in a battle and NOT get himself shot and/or imprisoned for his troubles.

He did not leave Canada to fly to an idyllic paradise for a vacation an the beach with relatives. He knowingly entered a free fire zone "desiring" to be a martyr for the cause. Well; he'll just have to forego the 72 virgin part, but as to the the rest, 'suck-it-up-buttercup'.

How many of you think the normal rule of law would apply to you yourselves if you were to take up this cause, fly over there and engage in an active battle with American troops? "Oh, I'm sorry, did I kill one of you? Well just send me home and I'll stand trial in Canada, okie dokie?" ~ Naivety abounds here.

We are not talking about the breaking of school windows with a BB gun here!

Sorry; but all of your apologists have got yourselves into a debate with someone who just does not give the fact he was 15 years old AND a Canadian citizen (of convenience) any traction at all. he was old enough to cross an ocean, take the training courses and arm hinself to the teeth, enter a combat zone AND kill a combatant as a combatant. END of story!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
Also, there is clear evidence and testimony that he was tortured. He spent a DECADE in Guantanamo, from 2002 to 2012, do you really think he was the sole prisoner to escape the torture that goes on there? There is a video here:

“I Lost My Eyes” – Omar Khadr Interrogations at Guantanamo Bay « Antiwar.com Blog

There are even doubts that he did what the U.S. military claims he did given he was tortured into confessing.

Do not believe anything that the U.S. government officially says about Guantanamo. Many of the detainees are innocent farmers and non-combatants who were swept up by the U.S. military. The U.S. government has consistently lied and obfuscated about the reality of how detainees are treated there, including the documented murders of several inmates from torture.
You don't want me to believe anything that the US (and Canadian) governments said about this case; but you are more than willing to accept everything Khadr and his lawyers claimed?!?! This is nothing but cherry-picking newspaper articles in an effort to prove a point that has been long dismissed. Last I checked, Khadr had both his eyes.

In fact the Supreme Court of Canada after reviewing all the videotapes of his interrogation stated that the Government had acted illegally; but that there was no evidence of torture.

I would believe the Supreme Court over Khadr and his lawyers! Saying you were tortured has become fashionable. On the other hand there were reports that Khadr was acting like a "tough guy" and was being uncooperative when the Canadians were interrogating him at Guantanamo.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:57 AM
 
10,357 posts, read 8,030,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And you know this how, exactly ~ ~ ??
Obviously the U.S. military is not going to admit he was tortured. There have been something like 9 prisoners that we know of that have died at Guantanamo, but of course the U.S. military is going to say many of them were suicides.

But the following sources say differently:

The following is a report from the United Nations Commission on Human Rights on the treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Detention Camp during a time period in which Khadr was there which includes a section on "TORTURE AND OTHER CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...guantanamo.pdf

As well a report to rescind the license of an Ohio psychologist who headed up the torture for several years during the time Khadr was there. The original complaint, filed with the Ohio Board of Psychology, was supported by over a thousand pages of documentation, including reports from the US military, the Department of Justice, the Central Intelligence Agency and statements from survivors and witnesses.

According to the complaint, during James' tenure at Guantanamo, "boys and men were systematically abused" and were subjected to "rape and death threats" and torture techniques such as "forced nudity; sleep deprivation; extreme isolation; short-shackling into stress positions; and physical assault."

Guantanamo Psychologist Led Rendition and Imprisonment of Afghan Boys, Complaint Charges

Khadr 'torture' confessions allowed - Americas - Al Jazeera English

FACT SHEET | FREE Omar Khadr

Former Guantanamo inmates tell of confessions under 'torture' - CNN.com

As well there are videos on Youtube if you do a search for torture and Gitmo, or Guantanamo Bay.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:03 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 2,007,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
Guantanamo Detention Camp most certainly does operate outside of international law, at least according to the U.N.'s Human Rights chief Navi Pillay who in January 2012 said:

"she was disturbed by the Government’s failure to allow independent human rights monitoring of the detention conditions at Guantanamo."

“Yet the facility continues to exist and individuals remain arbitrarily detained – indefinitely – in clear breach of international law,” she added.
Firstly, you are not going to get me to defend Guantanamo! Most Americans and even Obama want it closed!

And secondly, you do not seem to know the difference between "operating outside of international law" and "breaking international law"? You are using U.N.'s Human Rights chief Navi Pillay's example to single out the U.S. as if they are the only country in the world that has broken international law or violated human rights?

Pretty much every country in the West including Canada have broken international laws and violated human rights (according to the U.N.) on multiple occasions. So, why are you singling out the U.S.? You think this torture problem is uniquely American? Think again!

Torture by Army Peacekeepers in Somalia Shocks Canada - NYTimes.com

Al-Sweady inquiry hears father's allegations of torture by British troops | UK news | The Guardian
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