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Old 06-12-2013, 01:43 PM
 
18,296 posts, read 10,386,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Newsflash - many immigrants and children of immigrants have dual loyalties. Unless we want to be an ass backward, barbaric country with a death penalty, a country that treats children in the criminal system the same as adults, the fact is that Canadians come in all shapes and sizes, good and bad, and being a bad Canadian doesn't affect the 'Canadian' part of it at all.
As you would have probably suspected; I disagree with your over-dramatized assessment.

No grey areas between "ass backwards, barbaric country with a death penalty" and Omar Khadr being treated as a child in OUR criminal justice system?

NEWSFLASH: He was not tried and convicted in OUR criminal justice system. He had no recourse to law in OUR criminal justice system.

We are debating about his having the right and privilege to OUR criminal justice system when he engages in what might have been construed as being a criminal activity in ANOTHER jurisdiction.

At least that's what I thought we were debating.

Just because he is an underage Canadian does not, nor should it, automatically grant him some sort of special consideration via birthright or legal immigration.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,542,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
As you would have probably suspected; I disagree with your over-dramatized assessment.

No grey areas between "ass backwards, barbaric country with a death penalty" and Omar Khadr being treated as a child in OUR criminal justice system?

NEWSFLASH: He was not tried and convicted in OUR criminal justice system. He had no recourse to law in OUR criminal justice system.

We are debating about his having the right and privilege to OUR criminal justice system when he engages in what might have been construed as being a criminal activity in ANOTHER jurisdiction.

At least that's what I thought we were debating.

Just because he is an underage Canadian does not, nor should it, automatically grant him some sort of special consideration via birthright or legal immigration.
I thought you didn't care about the debate any longer or I would have addressed your posts. No, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't and in this case I couldn't disagree more strongly with you.

I don't see any grey area in promoting ourselves internationally as human rights champions and refusing to repatriate a Canadian citizen to serve his time here when the other country involved is trying desperately to get rid of him. And secondly, the Canadian government has a responsibility to advocate for its citizens, within the realms of our understanding of justice, even when a Canadian has very clearly broken the law elsewhere. One example would be that most western countries will not extradite a citizen to a country where he or she could possibly be facing the death penalty.

And under our system, Kahdr would not be tried as an adult.

Being an under-aged citizen of anywhere should give a person some sort of special consideration as TOkidd in his post about child soldiers and ellemint and tarp have already stated.

We weren't the good guys either in Afghanistan.

I don't have the time unfortunately for a lengthy debate so I'll leave it at this and we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:09 PM
 
18,296 posts, read 10,386,738 times
Reputation: 13360
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I thought you didn't care about the debate any longer or I would have addressed your posts. No, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't and in this case I couldn't disagree more strongly with you.

I don't see any grey area in promoting ourselves internationally as human rights champions and refusing to repatriate a Canadian citizen to serve his time here when the other country involved is trying desperately to get rid of him. And secondly, the Canadian government has a responsibility to advocate for its citizens, within the realms of our understanding of justice, even when a Canadian has very clearly broken the law elsewhere. One example would be that most western countries will not extradite a citizen to a country where he or she could possibly be facing the death penalty.

And under our system, Kahdr would not be tried as an adult.

Being an under-aged citizen of anywhere should give a person some sort of special consideration as TOkidd in his post about child soldiers and ellemint and tarp have already stated.

We weren't the good guys either in Afghanistan.

I don't have the time unfortunately for a lengthy debate so I'll leave it at this and we will have to agree to disagree.
I'm not interested in debating; I agree with the bulk of this post. I disagree only with your assessment of the depth and breadth of Canada's responsibility to advocate in THIS instance. It's this particular instance I do not care about at all.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:01 PM
 
10,357 posts, read 7,984,823 times
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Anyway, Canada has an obligation to uphold the international treaties it has ratified such as the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention Against Torture, and the Geneva Convention.

It also has an obligation to not allow another nation or terrorist state to ignore these international treaties in its treatment of a Canadian citizen, no matter which nation it is or how unsavory the Canadian citizen might be.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:21 PM
 
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I agree to disagree with you.

"An obligation to not allow......" mmmmmm?
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:50 PM
 
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BruSan, have you ever read the Convention Against Torture, or the Convention on the Rights of the Child?
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:22 AM
 
34,401 posts, read 41,509,339 times
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As far as i'm concerned the little creep gave up all his rights as a juvenile when he threw the hand grenade and killed an allied soldier, he was caught and is paying the consequences of his act.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics.../20035771.html
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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Jambo101, You can't "give up all your rights" by any action you (allegedly) take. Those rights are inalienable rights, and they are supposed to be there to protect you no matter what. Of course, in practice, we don't have any rights at all but only temporary privileges.

Also, someone is either a juvenile or not. Any actions they take as a juvenile cannot strip them of their status as a juvenile. Under Canadian law someone under 16 years of age can never be tried as an adult. That being said, this kid didn't even get a fair trial, plus he was held for a decade in a prison camp/torture camp by the U.S. government. And I, for one, can't fault him for fighting against a foreign occupier. While I don't condone any violence, are you really trying to suggest that people are supposed to sit idly by while their lands are invaded by foreign troops?

You'd probably be the same person to "commend" an 18 year old Canadian who goes off and kills an Afghani, for "serving his country" (read: serving the U.S. masters of our government).
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:49 AM
 
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While he was over in Afghanistan getting a good hate on for the west including Canada i wonder how much thought he gave to his Canadianess as he defended Afghanistan, seems to me he had a decision to make as to which side of the conflict his patriotism was on he chose to side with terrorists and blow up an allied soldier who could very easily have been a Canadian. As for him protecting Afghanistan from an invading hoarde of enemies the actual mission was to seek out and destroy a terrorist organization who's only goal was to destroy western culture and values,the allies were not there to invade Afghanistan or conquer its people.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:24 AM
 
1,723 posts, read 5,143,352 times
Reputation: 1351
Terrorist is a loaded term and very subjective. The actual goal of the "mission" was for Dick Cheney to secure Afghanistan so he could build a pipeline from Russia's oilfields. You have been drinking the Kool-Aid, jambo101. Nobody in Afghanistan wants to "destroy western culture and values." Do you also buy the whole "they hate us for our freedom" b.s.?
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