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Old 07-29-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 12,313,634 times
Reputation: 10018

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The EU has had some very successful joint design models, especially of aircraft both fixed- and rotary-wing, that have seemingly leveraged the fact that in union they are larger than the US in population and probably GNP. I have to confess ignorance of the overall cost savings (if there is one), but if it's cost-prohibitive to build domestically designed stuff, and for whatever reason (cost, lack of suitability, sense of dependency) Canada doesn't prefer to buy our stuff, maybe a good solution would be to join in the European programs if you haven't already. In the past the Forces have used the West/German Leopard models, which I believe have been suitable, but I think we are getting toward a day when there won't be Challenger/Leclerc/Leopard but the Eurotank (for example), which everyone will use and build domestically.

I get the main thrust of what you're saying, though, which is that the national and political will must be there and be sustained for any such initiatives to bear fruit. This means that it requires a tenure like that of, say, Trudeau; in a parliamentary constitutional monarchy in which elections can happen on short notice, that's going to be rare. Evidently that mighty, monolithic monarchy, that dictates all matters from which peasants will be beheaded this week to how many tankers of maple syrup will be exported, somehow manages to fail to prevent a raucous, vibrant democracy that can do things like take 'Royal' off the names of services without triggering draconian political intervention.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:33 PM
 
558 posts, read 547,642 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
dude, you're fn hilarious. As if you really give a rat's a55 about Canada or its relationship to the British Monarchy. If people who actually live here are so ambivalent about it, why is it so bothersome to you? I guess it's just because you care. About democracy. So much.
You don't know me, so how can you say what I care or don't care about? I don't like monarchy because it's undemocratic. Why do you have a problem with that? Is it because you truly agree with the principles that oppose democracy and equality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Way to go though, fighting the good fight, hitting back against those pasky Canadians and their smug anti-American attitudes. I'm sure your people will appreciate the sacrifice you're making here on this forum to defend their honor.
This has nothing to do with America or Anti-Americanism, but your desperate attempt at forcing that unrelated topic into the discussion is telling.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:13 PM
 
558 posts, read 547,642 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Drknoble, your own posts negate your claim that you wanted to start a legitimate debate about the monarchy. Starting with your choice of antagonistic language and further saying that there is no debate.
I never set out to debate whether monarchy is wrong or right because that's absolutely ridiculous since monarchy is obviously wrong.

The debate I was referring to was - why monarchy hasn't been removed from Canada, how does a democracy like Canada reconcile the monarchy contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Good. Nice to know that you see an oath as more than a ceremonial role since the monarch also takes an oath to the people to "..solemnly promise and swear to govern the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon and of your Possessions and other Territories, to any of them belonging or pertaining according to their respective laws and customs." See Coronation Oath.

The monarch takes an oath to the People first, not the other way around. Note the "pertaining to their respective laws and customs."
It is more than a ceremonial role since there's actual law that directly supports the oath.

I guess we should just trust the monarch on word alone and have no checks and balances. Her word is obviously enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
What is a democracy? The will of the people? In that case you lose your argument simply by virtue of the fact that most Canadians support the monarchy. Or would you prefer that someone with republican views impose democracy on Canadians against their will? That just sounds so....undemocratic.
Actually you lose the argument simply because there was never a vote by the Canadian people to give the monarchy democratic legitimacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Is this monarchy thing you have actually a father issue?

Is this a hurt feeling issue, where you feel that the US gets bashed and therefore you just want to hit out as retaliation? I understand that but hurt feelings make for a very poor argument.
Is your zombie-like support for the monarchy because of stockholm syndrome?

And unsurprisingly, you're taking my reference to US bashing out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Then logic would suggest it is not a problem for most Canadians.

Not really. Perhaps you are reverting to your less-than-honest self. You can't say on the one hand it is a debate, and the next that there is no debate.
Since I can chew gum and walk at the same time, I'm pretty sure I can debate and gauge Canadian attitude at the same time. Or is that impossible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Okay. Oaths are more than just "empty.' See my point about the Queen's oath to the people. Which puts 'the people' above the Queen. And when "the people" have no more desire for a monarch, there is no more monarchy. Exhibit One: USA.
What specific law supports your claim that the people are above the monarchy and can take down the queen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I don't think you are Kansasturtle. Kansasturtle's English was not that great and if you read Kansasturtle's previous posts, you'll find an unselfconscious, nave satisfaction in taking trips to other countries just to confirm his belief that the US is superior. I could be wrong of course, but I hear a completely different 'voice' between the two.
I'm glad you used common sense, unlike some people.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:23 PM
 
558 posts, read 547,642 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Heres the topic i was referring to where oddly post 82 is the last we hear of the very active poster and outspoken op Kansasturtle then on post 97 up pops our anti monarchist drknoble to continue for another 22 pages of trying to bash Canada.. Seems just too obvious to me..
Canada Inferiority Complex

Now werent we talking about something interesting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Nice post net but our op will be having none of it, he hates the monarchy and thats all that matters in his life.
Kansasturtle starts a topic amazingly similar to this one another vacuous rant on meaningless trivialities meant solely as a bash Canada topic,all of a sudden after about 10 pages of meaningless drivel Kansasturtle disappears and who shows up? Drknoble of course,

What a scientific assessment.

I'm not surprised that the defender of monarchy believes zero evidence equals truth.

I sure hope the mods come and confirm or deny your conspiracy theory.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:37 PM
 
558 posts, read 547,642 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Canada? Canada is the laughingstock of the world? Not the other 53 countries in the Commonwealth?
Ummm, OK. Canada...the land of happy, healthy people, the most educated populace, with the strongest banking system on earth is a laughingstock?
You're adorable.
It sounds like you're jealous.
Every time monarchy shows up, Canada and the other 53 countries become laughing stocks. Just because I hate monarchy, doesn't mean I hate Canada.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:08 PM
 
558 posts, read 547,642 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Debating a topic stopped on the first page. His original post asked the question why. He got a bunch of answers that all answered that question adequately enough.

He has now gone onto accusing anyone who stands on the ground of ambivilance towards the monarchy as "loving" it.

One cannot debate with people such as that. They use emotive adjectives like spray paint.

His diatribe ran it's course before this thread had comprised but three pages, yet here we are at 44 and counting, with all of the foregoing being merely repeated ad-infinitum.

We're a tenacious lot to be sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
44 pages eh? is this topic worthy of even more pages .?, i got a great idea lets just.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
44 pages of us wasting our time trying to debate or respond to someone who doesn't want to debate or read our responses. He could care less about Canada's ties to the British monarchy. He's just here to bother people. I think he'll melt away once we stop responding to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Yep; I am my own worst enemy when it comes to that ability. Have suggested the same thing but then he'll post something that twists my knickers and off I go on another quest looking for the lost relevance necklace.

I'll promise to try really, really, hard to ignore the drk one! There's always the slim possibility Netwit might be right about the Kansasturtle linkage but it would be nice to see this guy's posts solely on the Canadian site, looking to stir chit, subsequently ignored to see if/who he becomes in an attempt to once again regain a little 'acrimony' traction.
Have you noticed that the people who actually agree with my position have not commented as much on this thread? That's because they see how anyone who dares oppose the monarchy is attacked, outcasted, labeled a troll, and accused of making fake accounts.

Disappointingly, if I'd spent 46+ pages praising monarchy, they'd want to nominate me as the most noble user on citydata, one deserving a peace prize
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Toronto
1,570 posts, read 2,814,569 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
Have you noticed that the people who actually agree with my position have not commented as much on this thread? That's because they see how anyone who dares oppose the monarchy is attacked, outcasted, labeled a troll, and accused of making fake accounts.

Disappointingly, if I'd spent 46+ pages praising monarchy, they'd want to nominate me as the most noble user on citydata, one deserving a peace prize
Maybe you should look up my first post in this thread. I said pretty clearly that I want Canada's ties with the British monarchy cut. Besides, what do you hope to accomplish on this forum? If the issue is so important to you, petition the Canadian government or something. Don't think you're making a difference posting in a forum about Canada on the Internet.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,776,239 times
Reputation: 9293
The Queen is the boss..few counties have a boss- No one really knows who controls the show..at least it is clear in Canada and other Common Wealth nations...Canada is a company and the Queen is the CEO -
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:53 AM
 
18,284 posts, read 10,383,572 times
Reputation: 13351
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
The EU has had some very successful joint design models, especially of aircraft both fixed- and rotary-wing, that have seemingly leveraged the fact that in union they are larger than the US in population and probably GNP. I have to confess ignorance of the overall cost savings (if there is one), but if it's cost-prohibitive to build domestically designed stuff, and for whatever reason (cost, lack of suitability, sense of dependency) Canada doesn't prefer to buy our stuff, maybe a good solution would be to join in the European programs if you haven't already. In the past the Forces have used the West/German Leopard models, which I believe have been suitable, but I think we are getting toward a day when there won't be Challenger/Leclerc/Leopard but the Eurotank (for example), which everyone will use and build domestically.

I get the main thrust of what you're saying, though, which is that the national and political will must be there and be sustained for any such initiatives to bear fruit. This means that it requires a tenure like that of, say, Trudeau; in a parliamentary constitutional monarchy in which elections can happen on short notice, that's going to be rare. Evidently that mighty, monolithic monarchy, that dictates all matters from which peasants will be beheaded this week to how many tankers of maple syrup will be exported, somehow manages to fail to prevent a raucous, vibrant democracy that can do things like take 'Royal' off the names of services without triggering draconian political intervention.
I'm seeing what you've done here.

I believe the somewhat filial attachment we have with our southern neighbour will still prevail in procurement decisions to a great extent. This can be attributed to the commonality of training and exposure to each other's systems and training throughout the world. When wintering in Yuma when we were still yanking a 5th wheel trailer around, we were very near the Proving Grounds and while the Golden Knights were performing a skydive routine open to the public, we rode our Harleys over to attend the show and I noticed some Canadian shoulder flashes among the crowd and asked wht the hey they were doing down there. It turned out they were part of some evaluation or "let's have a look" group sent to view the V22 Osprey's that had just recently been assigned a training mission at the Marine Corps Air Base in Yuma on Avenue 3E.

Our RV Park was right beneath the flight approach commonly used by those guys returning from Proving Ground training missions and to say the whole park was out in the streets watching them come in for landing would be the understatement of the year. We loved those things because in a desert environment dear wifey didn't have to dust the whole winter. Those guys would vibrate the whole park enough no one had to dust.

Were Canada to avail themselves of a few of those for a rapid deployment of mixed force role; whooeee.

throw a few into heavy haulers, fly anywhere in the world, rapid assemble them to then arrive at a hot spot that needs instant address in a peace keeping instance with these guys aboard:

Joint Task Force 2: Canada's elite fighters - Canada - CBC News

and you'd really have something.

Those poor guys at Benghazi would have dearly loved to have heard Ospreys coming and given an F15 low pass or two before their arrival; boots on the ground could very well have been established with those firebombing cretins fading into the night without having fired a shot.

Our dilemna is an easily understood one: 35 million taxpayers means only so much to go around and when we are tasked with Provinces with their hands out while blowing 600 million on a gas generating plant cancellation, as just one example, it leaves very little to instantly fund an west to east pipeline, placate our natives to run one west, or perform a refinery miracle in the event Obama continues waffling on the XL expansion that is entirely privately funded.

The will is there but the well has a restricted flow rate.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Hougary, Texberta
8,598 posts, read 11,085,198 times
Reputation: 10308
Quote:
Originally Posted by drknoble View Post
Have you noticed that the people who actually agree with my position have not commented as much on this thread? That's because they see how anyone who dares oppose the monarchy is attacked, outcasted, labeled a troll, and accused of making fake accounts.
Actually anyone who may disagree with the Monarchy have likely done one of two things.

1) Not commented for fear of being associated with your ranting

2) Don't care enough to worry about it, as it is not an issue of the slightest merit in the current environment.
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