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I think a Canadian system-style of healthcare would work well in the US but rolling it out would be very difficult. To implement it, certain players are going to have to reduce profits/incomes like doctors, insurances companies, drug companies, hospitals and other service providers along the chain who make big $$$ in the US system, which I believe is a bit out of control in this respect. Scaling down a family doctor's income from $350K to $250k or sliming down corporate profit margins (i.e. corporate bonuses and salaries) to reduce costs and spread the wealth is not easy but I believe the reason why the US system is so expensive has been due to profiteering by everyone in the system. The organizations with $$$ also have the lobbying power to get their way so this is a steep uphill battle. Plus they'd have to raise taxes (or cut the military?) to make this happen which again is very difficult to do. I don't see changes happening in a Canadian-fashion because it is too government-based which is not the US way of doing things. But that is not to say the US system could get where it needs to be through similar but different methods. I personally think Obamacare is a step in the right direction and I admire the President's will to implement this. IMO in the richest country in the world, every citizen should have a safety blanket in terms of baseline healthcare coverage, especially for emergencies, and I believe they will make this happen.
That being said, I believe there are too many myths about each other's healthcare systems that just aren't true.
-Excessive wait times in Canada: they are longer in Canada for non-essential routines but are more than acceptable for critical procedures. But wait times and even having trouble finding a family doctor is a reality I've seen many times. I had to see a specialist once and it took a couple of weeks and although it wasn't life threatening, I was still not comfortable. There are more problems in rural areas than the big cities but these are not insurmountable issues.
-Service: this might be the result of being motivated by building a long-term customer but I've had a couple of doctors in the US now and they all have been more friendly and service-oriented. Several doctors back home (not all but enough of them) seemed more apathetic and more about turnover more than anything else. This is subjective and just based on my personal experience.
-Free-for-all Healthcare in Canada: it is NOT free in Canada. We pay more in taxes for it plus you need to supplement government healthcare with private insurance to get glasses/contacts, prescriptions, hearing aids, eye exams, etc. You will need private insurance to live a decent life for you and your family, everything is not free like a pure socialist label would imply, but insurance is not excessively expensive through an employer.
-US Healthcare sucks: it doesn't suck. I use US healthcare now and I'll tell you that the service, benefits, and equipment I get are better than what I got in Canada but I will not lie to you, I have a good employer who provides a good plan. Trust me, people working for Fortune 500 companies and in various professions (i.e. people with $$$) are not the ones worried about healthcare and are probably taken care of better than the average Canadian. US Healthcare sucks for people who don't have coverage and for those who work in jobs or for employers that offer less, which end up incorporating the majority of the population. There is a sliding scale based on income for sure with the top of scale exceeding Canada and the bottom not even providing band aids that needs to be reworked for the greater good.
Although not perfect, I think the Canadian healthcare system does work better for the whole than the US system does - we spend less on healthcare for similar outcomes and provide more for all citizens. If I were to start a country from scratch, I would follow the Canadian system but I would also permit private clinics and hospitals for those who want to pay for it. We shouldn't restrict a service to people in our society if they are wiling to pay for it. I'm sure the 1% Canadians will pay up money to skip lines and get things done quicker, both in the Canada or in the US if they wanted to.
Last edited by johnathanc; 07-24-2013 at 12:37 PM..
I think a Canadian system-style of healthcare would work well in the US but rolling it out would be very difficult. To implement it, certain players are going to have to reduce profits/incomes like doctors, insurances companies, drug companies, hospitals and other service providers along the chain who make big $$$ in the US system, which I believe is a bit out of control in this respect. Scaling down a family doctor's income from $350K to $250k or sliming down corporate profit margins (i.e. corporate bonuses and salaries) to reduce costs and spread the wealth is not easy but I believe the reason why the US system is so expensive has been due to profiteering by everyone in the system. The organizations with $$$ also have the lobbying power to get their way so this is a steep uphill battle. Plus they'd have to raise taxes (or cut the military?) to make this happen which again is very difficult to do. I don't see changes happening in a Canadian-fashion because it is too government-based which is not the US way of doing things. But that is not to say the US system could get where it needs to be through similar but different methods. I personally think Obamacare is a step in the right direction and I admire the President's will to implement this. IMO in the richest country in the world, every citizen should have a safety blanket in terms of baseline healthcare coverage, especially for emergencies, and I believe they will make this happen.
That being said, I believe there are too many myths about each other's healthcare systems that just aren't true.
-Excessive wait times in Canada: they are longer in Canada for non-essential routines but are more than acceptable for critical procedures. But wait times and even having trouble finding a family doctor is a reality I've seen many times. I had to see a specialist once and it took a couple of weeks and although it wasn't life threatening, I was still not comfortable. There are more problems in rural areas than the big cities but these are not insurmountable issues.
-Service: this might be the result of being motivated by building a long-term customer but I've had a couple of doctors in the US now and they all have been more friendly and service-oriented. Several doctors back home (not all but enough of them) seemed more apathetic and more about turnover more than anything else. This is subjective and just based on my personal experience.
-Free-for-all Healthcare in Canada: it is NOT free in Canada. We pay more in taxes for it plus you need to supplement government healthcare with private insurance to get glasses/contacts, prescriptions, hearing aids, eye exams, etc. You will need private insurance to live a decent life for you and your family, everything is not free like a pure socialist label would imply, but insurance is not excessively expensive through an employer.
-US Healthcare sucks: it doesn't suck. I use US healthcare now and I'll tell you that the service, benefits, and equipment I get are better than what I got in Canada but I will not lie to you, I have a good employer who provides a good plan. Trust me, people working for Fortune 500 companies and in various professions (i.e. people with $$$) are well taken care of and probably taken care of better than the average Canadian. US Healthcare sucks for people who don't have coverage and for those who work in jobs or for employers that offer less, which end up incorporating the majority of the population. So cheers again to Obama for doing what's right for the middle class. There is a sliding scale based on income for sure with the top of scale exceeding Canada and the bottom not even providing band aids that needs to be reworked for the greater good.
Although not perfect, I think the Canadian healthcare system does work better for the whole than the US system does. If I were to start a country from scratch, I would follow the Canadian system but I would also private clinics and hospitals for those who want to pay for it. We shouldn't restrict a service to people in our society if they are wiling to pay for it. I'm sure the 1% Canadians will pay up money to skip lines and get things done quicker, both in the Canada or in the US if they wanted to.
Great information! One thing I will just add, as an American, that there are pretty long wait times to see specialists here in the U.S., too. Usually when I schedule any type of specialist appointment, if it's not a dire emergency I have to schedule a few weeks in advance since these specialists are so busy. So it's not perfect as far as non-emergency wait time here, either, and yet we are paying top $$$ for those appointments.
Great information! One thing I will just add, as an American, that there are pretty long wait times to see specialists here in the U.S., too. Usually when I schedule any type of specialist appointment, if it's not a dire emergency I have to schedule a few weeks in advance since these specialists are so busy. So it's not perfect as far as non-emergency wait time here, either, and yet we are paying top $$$ for those appointments.
That's certainly possible but here in Boston (where I live), I've been able to see a specialist very quickly (days) in my limited experiences. It will depend on your network of providers and how staffed and efficient they are I suppose.
I don't think most Americans WANT the Canadian healthcare system, which essentially forces certain people to pay for the health cost for others.
In addition, this no matter now rich you are, you can only get the same service in Canada type of regulation is not fair.
And let me stress it again, doctor's visits should not be free. Ideally, nothing should be free.
But that's the nature of insurance systems. That's how they work.
The system should be free. People who are retired or unemployed who need medical care can't afford the co-pays for expensive tests or procedures, even if they have insurance.
I'm curious as to whether the Canadian system restricts testing and treatment to the extent the US system currently does. A lot of thyroid cases go undiagnosed because insurance doesn't want to pay for anything more than the preliminary test. That's just one example of hidden restrictions in the system. I'd also like to know if Canada's medical schools do a better job of educating their doctors. There's an awful lot of doctor ignorance and medical neglect in the US, that results in unnecessary cases of chronic illness often causing people to become disabled.
But that's the nature of insurance systems. That's how they work. .
No, it is not the nature of insurance. Most insurance doesn't force you to buy it. For example, one is only required to buy insurance against damaged caused to others, but not to the driver himself and his own car. You don't HAVE to buy life insurance either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
The system should be free. People who are retired or unemployed who need medical care can't afford the co-pays for expensive tests or procedures, even if they have insurance.
Well, thos retired or unemployed should have saved a bit more for this when they had money instead of spending everything on the vacations, nice cars and home improvements when they had money, shouldn't they?
Nothing should be free, as if it is, people abuse it. I am not talking about a high co-pay that will empty your wallet, something in the range of $20 to avoid unnecessary doctor's visit. If one can't afford $20, he has been really irresponsible in this lifestyle, and that's his own problem.
I'm curious as to whether the Canadian system restricts testing and treatment to the extent the US system currently does. A lot of thyroid cases go undiagnosed because insurance doesn't want to pay for anything more than the preliminary test. That's just one example of hidden restrictions in the system. I'd also like to know if Canada's medical schools do a better job of educating their doctors. There's an awful lot of doctor ignorance and medical neglect in the US, that results in unnecessary cases of chronic illness often causing people to become disabled.
I do not believe testing and treatment is restricted at all in the Canadian system in the way you say it is in the US. If a doctor believes you need a test, they will not hesitate to order it. I know many women who had their thyroids removed after tests indicated that this procedure was required. Hell, you can even request a test if you believe you need one. Of course, you can't request one wily-nily, but if you tell your GP that you re having pain in your abdomen and want to have an ultrasound or other scan, they won't hesitate to book the appointment for you. You can ask for a colonoscopy pretty much on demand. Point is, doctors in Canada will always opt for a scan or test if they any reason to believe it might be helpful. They won't wait until a problem becomes unmanageable before they order the test.
As for your second question, you'd have to speak with someone who has been through Canadian medical school to get an accurate answer, but I believe that Canada is better at preventive medicine in the US, simply because I see a lot of it being done. As people age, GP's are very proactive in heading off problems before they start. I could give many examples of this from people I know, but I think you get the idea. If a doctor has any inclination of a health problem that may develop down the road, the will almost always opt for preventive treatment vs. dealing with the issue once it becomes a problem.
No, it is not the nature of insurance. Most insurance doesn't force you to buy it. For example, one is only required to buy insurance against damaged caused to others, but not to the driver himself and his own car. You don't HAVE to buy life insurance either.
Well, thos retired or unemployed should have saved a bit more for this when they had money instead of spending everything on the vacations, nice cars and home improvements when they had money, shouldn't they?
Nothing should be free, as if it is, people abuse it. I am not talking about a high co-pay that will empty your wallet, something in the range of $20 to avoid unnecessary doctor's visit. If one can't afford $20, he has been really irresponsible in this lifestyle, and that's his own problem.
So no one should spend anything in life in case they get sick? I can assure you, that if my parents had saved every penny they ever earned and never actually lived their lives, it still would not of covered the cost of the treatments they had.
The problem with private health insurance, is once you start to actually use it, your premiums go up, and up.
Also, you haven't answered my question regarding paying for you own medical care. Even if you decided to just pay what a private insurer would charge you for the same coverage and donate that amount to a charity, then I could at least understand you live by your words. However I suspect strongly that you don't. You get your care and complain about it.
Has anyone even made an attempt to at the very least familiarize themselves with the new healthcare law in the US? You know that one that had to pass the senate, house, reconciliation, CBO, Supreme Court???
If you are not familiar with the law it is impossible to debate whether a Canadian Style system would work or not.
Personally I study how healthcare systems are funded around the world for a living and my personal opinion is that a Canadian style system would never work in the US because of the nature of how the system is funded, especially when it comes to R&D expenditures. Thankfully President Obama and his advisers were intelligent enough to mirror the Massachusetts, Netherlands and Swiss systems when writing the law, those all are much easier transitions than a compete single payer system, because the bedrock of the system is built on the private insurance market.
The meat of the law goes into action January 1st, at least give it some time to work or if you offer an opinion make sure you are up to date on what the law accomplishes.
This is not to say the Canadian system is bad, anyone who paints one system with such broad a brush is simply ignorant. It is just not suitable for the US nor many other counties around the globe which have successfully found a way to insure their residents without adopting a single payer system.
Last edited by edwardsyzzurphands; 07-24-2013 at 03:39 PM..
Has anyone even made an attempt to at the very least familiarize themselves with the new healthcare law in the US? You know that one that had to pass the senate, house, reconciliation, CBO, Supreme Court???
If you are not familiar with the law it is impossible to debate whether a Canadian Style system would work or not.
Personally I study how healthcare systems are funded around the world for a living and my personal opinion is that a Canadian style system would never work in the US because of the nature of how the system is funded, especially when it comes to R&D expenditures. Thankfully President Obama and his advisers were intelligent enough to mirror the Massachusetts, Netherlands and Swiss systems when writing the law, those all are much easier transitions than a compete single payer system, because the bedrock of the system is built on the private insurance market.
The meat of the law goes into action January 1st, at least give it some time to work or if you offer an opinion make sure you are up to date on what the law accomplishes.
This is not to say the Canadian system is bad, anyone who paints one system with such broad a brush is simply ignorant. It is just not suitable for the US nor many other counties around the globe which have successfully found a way to insure their residents without adopting a single payer system.
This is absolutely right. The US system is being changed as we speak and no one seems to be acknowledging or perhaps even remembering this. It will roll out, it will not be as bad as people think, it will be tweaked, and it will get better. The problem with healthcare is that people use brush strokes, bias, and he said/she said type information to make judgments without having any personal experience with any other system in any depth whatsoever. Just as Americans may be "brainwashed" into thinking a single payer system is "socialist", Canadians are brainwashed into thinking their system is somehow the best as part of national pride. Both need work although today as it stands, I would prefer the Canadian system over the current US system. But the US is changing and hopefully they get this one right and successfully cover all citizens for a fair price. I'm happy that a serious problem has been addressed and change is occurring, that's a huge step forward.
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