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View Poll Results: Should burqa/niqab be banned in Canada?
Yes, ban it everywhere in public 26 46.43%
Yeah, but only on government places 8 14.29%
No 22 39.29%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 08-23-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post

As for the burqa itself:

It's a religiously symbolic article of clothing, and while the religion it represents may be, at times, backward and ignorant, the backward and ignorant are still protected under our charter laws.
Firstly, it is not ONLY a religious symbol. Who told you? One could argue that it is an form of female oppression.

And secondly, not all religious practices are protected under the Canadian charter of laws. Polygamy, between consenting adults under the religious faith of Mormonism (and others) is banned in Canada. I can name you many other practices that would not be allowed under the pretense of religious freedom.

Quote:
There are certainly times when removal is appropriate. When identification of a woman or search of a person is required, for example, it is perfectly acceptable to demand that the burqa be removed.
Ok! That would be acceptable to most. But what about wearing a burqa at work? A teacher in a classroom with 10 year old kids wearing a burqa? You need to tell me where exactly you would draw the line for me to counter your argument even further.

 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,346,398 times
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There are places in Africa where women go topless. When a western woman is traveling there, or living there, should she be forced to go topless?
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:11 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,722 posts, read 4,539,116 times
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I guess Yes, but only in government places and only if these women genuinely want to wear this, without any pressure exerted on them from/by anyone else.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,655,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Firstly, it is not ONLY a religious symbol. Who told you? One could argue that it is an form of female oppression.
The woman in the (irrelevant) video in the OP seemed content to be wearing it, and was rather rude to the girl in the dress for not doing so. Clearly, she felt she should be wearing it. Was she oppressed?

There certainly shouldn't be any requirement for a woman to wear it - and I don't think anyone, aside from hardline Muslim fundamentalists, is arguing for the implementation of Sharia law. The oppressors currently have no legal recourse if the woman refuses to wear it.

It could, of course, be argued that there are extra-legal means of enforcing practices. However, the banning of the burqa is unlikely to have any effect on those practices, nor the prevailing attitudes in those communities. What, then, have we accomplished?

Quote:
And secondly, not all religious practices are protected under the Canadian charter of laws. Polygamy, between consenting adults under the religious faith of Mormonism (and others) is banned in Canada. I can name you many other practices that would not be allowed under the pretense of religious freedom.
Generally those are banned as they contravene other rights. If we've established that a woman is not forced to wear the burqa, but chooses to do so, what section of the charter is she in contravention of?

Quote:
Ok! That would be acceptable to most. But what about wearing a burqa at work? A teacher in a classroom with 10 year old kids wearing a burqa? You need to tell me where exactly you would draw the line for me to counter your argument even further.
Most workplaces have guidelines in place regarding appropriate work-wear, either to meet safety standards or to convey an attitude of professionalism in place. I would expect that burqas, should the need arise, would be covered under such guidelines.

You can't teach a class of 10 year olds dressed like a stripper, either. We've made out okay without outright bans on dressing like that, so far.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,020 posts, read 2,701,653 times
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It's not illegal in Canada for a woman to go topless...

As for the niqab/burqa, they are cultural, NOT religious dresses. There are more women wearing them in Canada today than there were in Egypt 40 years ago. They are also worn for the same reason minarets are put on Mosques, and as we all know the Swiss government has banned the use of minarets on any new mosques. Burqas should be treated the same way for the same reason.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:15 PM
 
34,442 posts, read 41,547,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And this of course will be another tremendous opportunity for ROC-y finger pointing and Quebec-bashing!

Ooh-yeah! Ooh-yeah!

There is already way more media coverage online about the Quebec secular charter in English than in French.

Geez... I wonder why?

I also notice that the media coverage from the ROC is almost universally critical and even damning of Quebec on this, while on this forum and also elsewhere in the ROC where you talk to people the views are more mixed. Again - I wonder why?

Quote:
The charter would ban Jewish, Muslim and Sikh head coverings, and other religious or cultural symbols, for workers in Quebec’s public sector/any Provincial government office: schools, Hospitals,daycares, drivers’ license examiners etc. Philosopher Charles Taylor
Rather than deflect the importance of the issue and get all defensive and blame the rest of Canada for making a news story out of the issue and in some way ganging up on Quebec, would you care to defend the proposed legislation and tell us how this isnt a suspension of ones religious freedoms and how it benefits the people of Quebec.?
As long as Quebec remains a part of Canada it is incumbent on the province to exhibit those moral values that define Canada. this Charter of values doesnt IMO represent the many freedoms that come with the privilege of being a Canadian, to me this Charter has Xenophobic racism written all over it.

Last edited by jambo101; 08-23-2013 at 02:44 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:43 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,812 times
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This is becoming a duplicate thread. Everything you raised has been addressed here: I'm in Toronto.... What a city!

I am copy/pasting now. Urge you to join the other thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post
The woman in the (irrelevant) video in the OP seemed content to be wearing it, and was rather rude to the girl in the dress for not doing so. Clearly, she felt she should be wearing it. Was she oppressed?
We should be very careful about the term voluntary when it relates to a community where where, when a girl gets raped, her fathers first impulse, rather often, is to murder her out of shame and where girls can be stoned to death for adultery.

And please dont say that I am cherry picking examples. Moral killings are law of the land in countries like Pakistan. And the frequency of stoning women for crimes in many countries will surprise you.

Quote:
There certainly shouldn't be any requirement for a woman to wear it - and I don't think anyone, aside from hardline Muslim fundamentalists, is arguing for the implementation of Sharia law.
That's a new one: HARDLINE MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS ....
I don't like the word Islamic extremists. Much of muslim extremism is not extreme among Muslims. The scary truth is that Islam is all fringe and no center.

You might have a short memory span, but I remember the furor over the cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad that were first published in a Danish newspaper. The anger erupted because Islam forbids any depiction of the prophet - the cartoon was considered blasphemy. As it turned out, the Quran says that blasphemy of such magnitude is punishable by death.

Where were the Muslim moderates?
Was the religious hysteria limited to the extremists of the world?
Did the Denmark ever push Muslims into a corner?

All SEVENTEEN Arab governments issued a statement calling for punishment of the newspaper and the cartoonist. Pakistan's parliament called in a session to address this highly offensive issue.

Turkey's prime minister said that the cartoons were an attack on muslims everywhere. And the cherry on the cake was when the Leader of Lebanon's Hezbollah said that this entire thing could have been avoided if Salman Rushdie had been slaughtered for his book - "The Satanic Verses".

Oh yes .. the fictional work of Rushdie - the book that united the Muslim world in a collective outrage. Bounties were raised by heads of government. Assassination attempts were made ...
Why? Because Rushie, a Muslim himself (born in India, now Pakistan) somehow had oppressed the Islamic World?

A "Tiny Minority of Extremists"?

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph

Many British Muslims Put Islam First - CBS News[/quote]

Quote:
It could, of course, be argued that there are extra-legal means of enforcing practices. However, the banning of the burqa is unlikely to have any effect on those practices, nor the prevailing attitudes in those communities. What, then, have we accomplished?
Why ban anything then? Why ban hate speech? Let people wear T-shirts that say "I hate Jews" - if it's is a feeling in their heart ... let them express it.

Quote:
Generally those are banned as they contravene other rights. If we've established that a woman is not forced to wear the burqa, but chooses to do so, what section of the charter is she in contravention of?
Not true. How have we established that the woman was not forced to wear it? Do most women with a black eye tell you that their husband hit them?

And what about the effect of burqas on others?
Simply put, I have been saying that burqa is BAD - it is a sign of oppression, brings with it a message of hate/ misogyny, etc.

I can form a religion tomorrow that requires all the followers to wear a T-shirt that says "Holocaust was a hoax". Would this be allowed in the privacy of my back-yard even? No.

Now you would tell me .... well, this message offends Jews. .....And that would be a good reason to ban such hateful messages on T-shirts. Agree? But then why use a double standard against burqas? It offends not only the women who wear it, but everyone who sees them wearing it ...
Just look at the history of the burqa and the logic surrounding it's use.

Quote:
Most workplaces have guidelines in place regarding appropriate work-wear, either to meet safety standards or to convey an attitude of professionalism in place. I would expect that burqas, should the need arise, would be covered under such guidelines.

You can't teach a class of 10 year olds dressed like a stripper, either. We've made out okay without outright bans on dressing like that, so far.
This false analogy was debunked already in other thread.

Dressing as a stripper to school is not a right protected by law. Is it? But if you allow burqas as an article of religion, then you cannot stop a teacher from wearing it ANYWHERE, since it is a right (and protected)!
It would be considered discrimination. Can you create a code at work that does not let women that weights over 100 kgs to come to work? Or someone wearing a cross around their neck? No (unless it is a safety issue)!

Last edited by sandman249; 08-23-2013 at 03:14 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2013, 02:58 PM
 
Location: USA (dying to live in Canada)
1,034 posts, read 1,563,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Just wanted to let people know there are two threads on this topic. The other is in the Toronto.... what a city thread in the Toronto section.

Each thread seems more or less dominated by one of the points of view.
The burqa discussion doesn't belong there. This thread has a poll, and staying in topic.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 03:16 PM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,997,812 times
Reputation: 1027
Here's a more relevant video.
I would urge those who are serious about this issue to watch this brilliant TED TALK about Science and Morality. If you dont have time to watch the entire thing, skip to approx. 10:00 min for Sam Harris' take on this burqa issue. It is just brilliant!


Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions - YouTube
 
Old 08-23-2013, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Toronto
1,574 posts, read 2,818,524 times
Reputation: 1614
Why is it that most posters in this thread seem to respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and support the right of Muslim women to wear whatever they want, but the poll shows 4-1 in favouring of the niqab being banned here? Why the disconnect?

I find it kind of comical that mostly white Canadian-raised men (the majority of the posters in this particular forum, I presume) are being asked to vote on this issue when it doesn't effect them in the least. I wonder what the results would be if the poll were directed solely at Muslim women, seeing as how it is they who have to wear these garments, not us. Why should we care if they do or don't?

For those who are voting that it should be banned, I guess you have no problem with tossing our Charter Rights into the wind. Don't give me some crap about female oppression. Every culture has norms of dress and behaviour, and if Muslim women choose to wear the niqab, that's their choice - and if you think it is not a choice; that they are being forced to wear it by men, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that this is overwhelmingly the case. Otherwise, we must believe that Muslim women wear what they wear because they want to. There may be social pressure to conform in some parts of their community, but there is social pressure to conform in every facet of society, and we all do things that we might rather not do so we can "fit in". I could come up with dozens of social pressures average Canadians face regularly that are no less oppressive than wearing a niqab. But if we accept these pressures as part of living in mainstream society, then it's not really oppression is it? It's the price we pay to be accepted by our community. If no laws are being broken, no one is being hurt or killed, and no one's civil rights are being violated, it's none of my or your damn business.

Personally, I'm tired of this Jews for Jesus person coming here and turning the forum on its head so he can push his anti-Muslim, pro-Christian views. He can't claim he is posting this for an honest exchange of ideas, because he's already stated the extent of his bias against Muslims. All these posts by him (he has posted crap like this in dozens of forums on this board) are all aimed at the same goal - to stir up negative feelings about Muslims. I think I'm going to take a break from posting here and hope he's moved on to some other venue by the time I come back.
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