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Old 09-24-2013, 02:45 PM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,473 posts, read 1,963,351 times
Reputation: 857

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I'm against the Charter of Values because I know the difference between right and wrong. I don't deserve any respect for disagreeing with something. I haven't done anything to fight it, so why should I expect respect?

I'm still not sure exactly what troll means, but I called you one because of the insulting comments about French Canadian women and accents that you made earlier. If you were interested in a civil discussion you wouldn't have seen those things.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:34 PM
 
307 posts, read 185,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
I'm against the Charter of Values because I know the difference between right and wrong. I don't deserve any respect for disagreeing with something. I haven't done anything to fight it, so why should I expect respect?

I'm still not sure exactly what troll means, but I called you one because of the insulting comments about French Canadian women and accents that you made earlier. If you were interested in a civil discussion you wouldn't have seen those things.
PDW, I was not referring to you and that you expect respect from them. I was referring to the 70 year old Quebecois woman with purple hair protesting for the Charter this past week (you'd think at her age she would know better; I expect this behavior and attire from a 15 year old). She is asking for respect from the same immigrants she wants to strip naked of their religious skin. Women on the Mount-Royal jog with their hijab on. What does that tell us as an outsider?
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:20 PM
 
18,267 posts, read 10,368,849 times
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As I have said before on this thread: It's going to end badly!

Acrimony will spread like mould over every form of civil discourse due to this issue.
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:30 AM
 
34,371 posts, read 41,455,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
As I have said before on this thread: It's going to end badly!

Acrimony will spread like mould over every form of civil discourse due to this issue.
Agreed/
While IMO i think the Charter of Values is eliminating peoples religious freedoms,apparently many disagree with my assessment,OK, What really makes me nervous is where it will lead as the term "values" is very arbitrary in nature and doesnt necessarily need to dwell just on religious symbols. If this Charter is passed what values will be attacked after the religious symbols are outlawed?
It wont be long before religious symbols will be banned in the private sector as well relegating those who wear religious head wear to wearing them only in the privacy of their homes.
How about visible minorities in general will they become non value status in Quebec. And then one can only imagine the new rules and regulations one could institute against those pesky Anglos in the name of "Quebec Values"
IMO allowing a piece of legislation like the Charter of Values to become the law for a bunch of zealots like Quebecs separatist government to play with is akin to letting kids run wild in a candy store, a total blank check for Quebec to do anything it wants in the name of "Quebec values".
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:45 AM
 
2,288 posts, read 3,932,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Agreed/
While IMO i think the Charter of Values is eliminating peoples religious freedoms,apparently many disagree with my assessment,OK, What really makes me nervous is where it will lead as the term "values" is very arbitrary in nature and doesnt necessarily need to dwell just on religious symbols. If this Charter is passed what values will be attacked after the religious symbols are outlawed?
It wont be long before religious symbols will be banned in the private sector as well relegating those who wear religious head wear to wearing them only in the privacy of their homes.
How about visible minorities in general will they become non value status in Quebec. And then one can only imagine the new rules and regulations one could institute against those pesky Anglos in the name of "Quebec Values"
IMO allowing a piece of legislation like the Charter of Values to become the law for a bunch of zealots like Quebecs separatist government to play with is akin to letting kids run wild in a candy store, a total blank check for Quebec to do anything it wants in the name of "Quebec values".
Once again, I think you need to differentiate between what the PQ announced (the whole package) and what will ultimately be approved. The Charter actually consists of 5 proposals (source):

1) Amend the Québec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. This would entrench into the Charter (that already exists) (a) the separation of church and state, (b) the religious neutrality of the state, and (c) the secular nature of public institutions, and it would add a framework of rules to oversee accomodation requests. That part is largely noncontroversial -- its only critics are those who say those changes are useless since they are already implemented by Quebec courts.

2) Establish a duty of (religious) neutrality and reserve for all state personnel. Can't preach or let religious beliefs dictate your actions while on duty. Again, noncontroversial: public servants already have such a legal duty, which would now be extended to people in the health care and education sectors, police officers, etc.

3) Limit the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols. Hugely controversial. Couillard (head of the Liberals) said he'd be in favor of the Charter if that proposal was dropped. Legault's (CAQ) position is a bit unclear as usual -- he's against it but part of his base is for it.

4) Make it mandatory to have one's face uncovered when providing or receiving a state service. Completely noncontroversial. Was actually one of the Libs' proposals a few years ago, not sure why it was never passed.

5) Establish an implementation policy for state organizations. Largely noncontroversial once #3 is gone, the point would be to adapt #1 to individual ministries and state organizations.

---

The Charter will pass, the only bit of uncertainty is whether the PQ will succeed in pushing #3 through the CAQ's throat. The rest of the proposals will pass because they have the support of the overwhelming majority of the Quebec population, including Anglos and allophones.

My question to you, jambo:

If #3 is gone, are you still against the charter? If so, please explain why.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:16 AM
 
34,371 posts, read 41,455,107 times
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Good info barney but i think i have a fundamental ideological problem with any aspect of something as vague as a Charter of values whereby a government can arbitrarily decide what laws its people are to be subjected to purely on the whims of someones definition of a value. For some unknown reason religious head gear in the public sector seems to be the opening move,I've never been subjected to any negative from anyone in the public sector wearing any kind of religious symbolism on their head.Like what the heck do i care what some one is wearing on their head,its not like they are trying to convert me to their religious ways of thinking.
If passed I really dont have confidence that religious head gear is where it ends with this type of law..
.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:21 AM
 
2,288 posts, read 3,932,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Good info barney but i think i have a fundamental ideological problem with any aspect of something as vague as a Charter of values whereby a government can arbitrarily decide what laws its people are to be subjected to purely on the whims of someones definition of a value. For some unknown reason religious head gear in the public sector seems to be the opening move,I've never been subjected to any negative from anyone in the public sector wearing any kind of religious symbolism on their head.Like what the heck do i care what some one is wearing on their head,its not like they are trying to convert me to their religious ways of thinking.
If passed I really dont have confidence that religious head gear is where it ends with this type of law..
.
I see we're both against #3, and I agree that "Charter of Quebec values" is a dumb phrase. But still -- are you saying that even IF #3 is removed from the proposal, you are still against the charter because it "seems to be the opening move"?
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:36 PM
 
34,371 posts, read 41,455,107 times
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Number 4 is the only part that even comes close to logical , the rest of it is just more needless bureaucracy , with no benefit to anyone other than some self rightious separatist who thinks people wearing religious garb is in some way offensive in his esteemed interpretation of his value judgement.
I've never had any problems with Jews wearing Kippas,Sikhs wearing turbans or Muslim women wearing hijabs, why is this all of a sudden so vitally important to the separatist government?
This Charter of Values is so absurd and unnecessary I'm starting to wonder if this whole issue isnt a diversion and while we are all focused on it something else is happening..
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:08 PM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,473 posts, read 1,963,351 times
Reputation: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
2) Establish a duty of (religious) neutrality and reserve for all state personnel. Can't preach or let religious beliefs dictate your actions while on duty. Again, noncontroversial: public servants already have such a legal duty, which would now be extended to people in the health care and education sectors, police officers, etc.
I remember reading an article about a Baptist nurse in the UK who was suspended from work for offering to pray for one of her patients. Is this really the direction that you want society to go in? The government wouldn't be neutral by enforcing this, they'd be forcing their anti-religion agenda on their workers. Government workers shouldn't be slaves to politicians.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:43 PM
 
2,288 posts, read 3,932,930 times
Reputation: 2055
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Number 4 is the only part that even comes close to logical , the rest of it is just more needless bureaucracy , with no benefit to anyone other than some self rightious separatist who thinks people wearing religious garb is in some way offensive in his esteemed interpretation of his value judgement.
I've never had any problems with Jews wearing Kippas,Sikhs wearing turbans or Muslim women wearing hijabs, why is this all of a sudden so vitally important to the separatist government?
This Charter of Values is so absurd and unnecessary I'm starting to wonder if this whole issue isnt a diversion and while we are all focused on it something else is happening..
If you drop the hypocritical #3 from the picture, I don't see how this benefits separatists. But if you're still against it because it's just more needless bureaucracy, fair enough.
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