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Old 09-12-2013, 09:07 AM
 
34,435 posts, read 41,547,959 times
Reputation: 29899

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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
"Maudit Anglais"? Well, you should really get a sense of how French is perceived in English Canada, how it is mocked and despised. You are most likely an Anglophone and will probably laugh along, but put yourself in other people's shoes for once and you will realize this cursing is really a two way street.

In the end, if you insist speaking English in Montreal or Quebec, people will answer you. Try that in Toronto or Vancouver.

.
I'm in Ontario frequently and i have yet to see French being despised or even talked about. no doubt incidents occur but its no where near the frequency you are trying to imply,however when absolute stupidity like pastagate and turbangate stories hit the media mocking is inevitable blame the Quebec government for that not the ROC, ,its my experience people in ROC dont talk about Quebec and dont care about Quebec, your and AJ's assertions that ROC hates Quebec's guts is pure fabrication, Canada doesnt care about Quebec anymore, go ahead and separate no one will notice or care ...
My family and i are all fully bilingual me being functionally bilingual we dont speak English outside the house as just about every thing is French we accept that and have no problems with that reality,
However its very frustrating to see that today as far as the government is concerned and separatists in general my efforts at integration in to the Quebec mosaic i'm about as welcome in Quebec today as i was 35 years ago, just another Anglo f,,king up the Quebec dream of only French should be in Quebec, institute more severe language laws, more language police yeah that'll get rid of les autres.
I'm also not saying Quebec is a hell hole its just its governments and its separatist component and me have some irreconcilable differences particularly with asinine charters like bill101,proposed bill 14 proposed Charter of values, language police etc i'm not a big fan of the suspension of civil rights to the point its looking like racial cleansing is underway here in Quebec with Muslim race,the hindu/Sikh race,the Jewish race and of course Quebec's favorite demographic the Anglos all destined to be eradicated.
. ..
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:13 AM
 
2,292 posts, read 3,939,650 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't see these exceptions as hypocritical. Almost all western countries were founded on the Christian tradition, and while most of them have the separation of church and state, none of them have totally eradicated every single trace of their Christian heritage. There are still streets and towns named for saints everywhere and Christmas and Easter are still public holidays whereas important days for other religions are generally not.

I am not entirely aware of the situation of church-and-state in Brazil but somehow I doubt if they were to follow a secular path that they would dynamite the statue of Christ the Redeemer over Rio de Janeiro in order to be "consistent" and "non-hypocritical".

All of this being said, there is a "from now on" (désormais) aspect to these things, and what this means is that any NEW stuff we create won't have religious symbolism involved.
You're right, the cross on Mt. Royal is probably a bad example. But I disagree 100% about the crucifix at the Assemblée Nationale. If the objective of the charter was to "preserve Quebec's cultural heritage", you might have a point, but it's not (source):

Quote:
We propose to entrench the religious neutrality of the state and the secular nature of public institutions in the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.
I'm sure we both agree the Assemblée Nationale is a public institution. I'm sure we both know the reason why the crucifix got there in the 1930s: UN political leaders wanted to make a statement -- they wanted to show that the state was not secular. Keeping it now (when the stated objective of the charter is the exact opposite) is hypocritical. It's especially hypocritical since the only part of the charter that is really controversial -- the part that limits the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols -- has nothing to do with culture or heritage, and everything to do with the appearance of neutrality (source):

Quote:
We propose to prohibit the wearing of overt and conspicuous religious symbols by state personnel in carrying out their duties. This restriction would reflect the state’s neutrality.
So the Assemblée Nationale gets to keep the crucifix, because it's not worn by anyone, and it doesn't violate religious neutrality? While a CPE worker or university professor has to drop the hijab or kippa, because wearing it would violate religious neutrality? How is that not hypocritical?

You do raise a very good point about the "Western world" being mostly founded on the Christian tradition. What makes the PQ's proposal hypocritical is its stated objective -- religious neutrality -- while the main instrument to implement it is consistent with the preservation of a Catholic heritage, not with neutrality.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:18 AM
 
2,292 posts, read 3,939,650 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
Population estimates are notoriously inaccurate. The 2011 census, the only accurate recent figure of where Quebec's population rests puts it at 7 903 001. Certainly one of the slowest growing provinces in Canada, especially given its base population and the presence of a large, multicultural city like Montreal, which should be an attractive place for immigrants to settle. If the PQ's strategy is to eliminate the Non vote in anticipation of another referendum, the Charter of Values is certainly one of the lowest places they could sink to achieve that goal, even for the PQ. That is not to say that I would expect anything less of them, but I hoped at least that there was even a morsel of morality in them. Clearly not.
You're wrong.

Excerpt:

Quote:
One of the advantages of the census is to provide counts for small regions (below the census division level) for which demographic estimates are not available or are less precise. On the other hand, population estimates provide a more accurate measure of population counts.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:35 AM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,473 posts, read 1,966,922 times
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A census is a population count. An estimate is a guess. Although there have been issues since the end of the mandatory long form census, it's still more accurate than any estimate, which are often way off the mark. You and your anti-bilingual friends can argue with someone else, because I'm not interested. I have my opinion and that's the way it is.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,961 posts, read 27,397,138 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
A census is a population count. An estimate is a guess. Although there have been issues since the end of the mandatory long form census, it's still more accurate than any estimate, which are often way off the mark. You and your anti-bilingual friends can argue with someone else, because I'm not interested. I have my opinion and that's the way it is.
Regardless, you are covering yourself in ridicule here if you are suggesting that Quebec's population is declining in actual numbers, and that somehow there is a conspiracy on the part of goverment statistical agencies (including the federal one) in order to cover this up.
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:10 AM
 
29 posts, read 34,991 times
Reputation: 30
Canada is a Christian nation so non-Christian symbols should be banned
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:33 AM
 
2,292 posts, read 3,939,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
A census is a population count. An estimate is a guess. Although there have been issues since the end of the mandatory long form census, it's still more accurate than any estimate, which are often way off the mark. You and your anti-bilingual friends can argue with someone else, because I'm not interested. I have my opinion and that's the way it is.
You didn't click on my link, did you. Wait, you didn't even have to, I quoted the most relevant piece.

What part of "population estimates provide a more accurate measure of population counts" don't you understand? The 2006 census undercounted the Canadian population by 868,657.

Is it also your opinion that the world is flat?
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:55 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,281,099 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful Forever View Post
Canada is a Christian nation so non-Christian symbols should be banned
what a crazy statement.

Canada has no official religion, and support for religious pluralism (Freedom of religion in Canada) is an important part of Canada's political culture.

The 2011 Canadian census reported that 67% of Canadians claim adherence to Christianity, followed by no religion at 24%, but rates of religious adherence have been steadily decreasing.

Among the 67% probably 2/3 don't really give a damn about God or Jesus in reality and never go to the church, or think the Bible should guide their life. They were simply born Christian yet have no real connection to the religion or Jesus whatsoever.

I would put the the number of real Christian people who actually practice Christianity at less than 20%, and most in the countryside.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:06 PM
 
3,072 posts, read 4,283,814 times
Reputation: 6512
FWIW, I have plenty of friends here (yes, francophones) who are really disgusted by it. Call a spade a spade, the "exceptions" allow for small symbols that the PQ knows darn well will still eliminate Muslims as well as Sikhs. Christians with a small cross are no different than those carrying one on their shoulder, a cross is a cross. They know darn well that their religion absolutely requires the head coverings, and these people will be forced to choose between their religion and their job (and they will choose their religion, we all know that). Certain groups cannot maintain their faith without the head coverings. It is too integral. It is (and forgive me, it is not a directly related example), telling a Christian that you can be a Christian all you want, but you can't go to church or pray. The head coverings of certain religions are THAT critical to the religion.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:53 PM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,473 posts, read 1,966,922 times
Reputation: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
You didn't click on my link, did you. Wait, you didn't even have to, I quoted the most relevant piece.

What part of "population estimates provide a more accurate measure of population counts" don't you understand? The 2006 census undercounted the Canadian population by 868,657.

Is it also your opinion that the world is flat?
Estimates aren't population counts. Censuses are. No matter what you say, they are still a guess. The world isn't flat because we can see from space that it's not. Quebec's population is only 7.9 million because we counted the people living in Quebec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Regardless, you are covering yourself in ridicule here if you are suggesting that Quebec's population is declining in actual numbers, and that somehow there is a conspiracy on the part of goverment statistical agencies (including the federal one) in order to cover this up.
I never said it is declining, but it's nonetheless in the bottom 5 provinces in terms of population growth. This is even more significant when one considers Montreal, which should be a desirable place for immigrants to settle, and the base population Quebec already has, yet it is still growing slowly. Clearly immigrants aren't trampling each other to move to Quebec as some would claim. It's hardly the most desirable place to live in Canada anymore. Separatism ruined that. There is no one else to blame.
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