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Old 09-12-2013, 07:10 PM
 
3,072 posts, read 4,279,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Sikh men do take off their turbans to wash their hair.
Yes, sorry, I guess I lumped that part into bedtime routine Either way, only their wife will really see them without it. I grew up in a town of 30%+ EI population (Abbotsford, BC), in fact I grew up down the street from a massive Sikh temple, and the boys pretty much wear their turbans from age 1-2, as soon as it grows. I think you live in Abby too?
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,691 posts, read 8,759,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2 View Post
Yes, sorry, I guess I lumped that part into bedtime routine Either way, only their wife will really see them without it. I grew up in a town of 30%+ EI population (Abbotsford, BC), in fact I grew up down the street from a massive Sikh temple, and the boys pretty much wear their turbans from age 1-2, as soon as it grows. I think you live in Abby too?
No I live in downtown Vancouver. I'm not Sikh or East Indian, just a white Irish/French Canadian background guy who loves the diversity that is the new world.
You can't shut out the future.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:49 PM
 
18,282 posts, read 10,380,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2 View Post
Except sleep, Sikh men wear it 24/7. The women wear the hijab in the presence of non-related men/public. They remove it at home (unless unrelated males are at the home) and they remove it in all-female gatherings in private.

It's not about liking to wear it. It is a basic principle of the religion. Sikh men have starved themselves on hunger strikes before removing turbans. They simply won't do it. It's not negotiable to the religion.
And therein lays the rub. The turban is NOT a religious edict of Sikhism. It is a tradition derived from their very early involvement in the fabric dying history of India. The turban came late to the game of Sikhism. Generations of Sikhs simply had long hair and beards without containing them.

Their religion dictates not cutting their hair or beards, yet they do both now.

Original Sikhs wore their hair down their backs but due to the dye vats they toiled away at, that hair would often end up dropping into the vats of dye while they were stirring fabrics within the vats. They found that the scrap ends cut off a weave of fabric came in handy to coil around their head to contain their unruly hair; HENCE the turban with it's preponderance of vivid colours; a traditional form of dress. Nothing more and nothing less.
They are prohibited from drinking alcohol also but those wearing turbans can often be seen attending political functions with a cocktail in their hands.

While in the armed forces, I regularly drank with Sikh commissionaires (security) of Esquimalt B.C. dockyard at the Tudor House Hotel and the local Legion branch where they would remove the Turban in one piece and put it on the shelf inside the door of many men's drinking rooms of the day. They had assembled their turbans with a bunch of bobby pins so it could be removed en-masse and put back on without having to re-wind it. Some of them had the long hair as dictated and wore a hair net under their turban while others had hair shorter than a recruits buzz-cut.

Much has been made of a traditional icon rather than a religious requirement. So to, with other traditions being confused with religious requirements.

Reading some history would serve our politicians well as they simply acede to demands without study and look where that has gotten us today.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,360,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
No I live in downtown Vancouver. I'm not Sikh or East Indian, just a white Irish/French Canadian background guy who loves the diversity that is the new world.
You can't shut out the future.
Not saying this is the only aspect of the debate but if the future looks like all or even most of our women in niqabs or burkas then it looks a hell of a lot like the (not-so-glorious nor enlightened) past to me.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:58 AM
 
34,389 posts, read 41,490,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I agree. There is a balance of having newcomers understand the country they've move to, and that country allows freedom of religion. So now to say to those in Quebec, you can't wear your turban because you are an elementary school teacher, is wrong. Terribly wrong.
Its Quebecs loss as new immigrants to Canada will just not move to Quebec, Quebec governments have already made it impossible for non French speakers to move to Quebec now they are alienating any one with any overt religious beliefs .If the objective is to form a linguistically pure country of francophones by separating from Canada then the process is much easier than perpetrating all these idiotic restrictive charters on the people, Its as simple as declaring independence unilaterally, in other words Quebec should just leave Canada..Two problems will be immediately solved, Quebec will have its dreamed of pure French motherland and the majority of those not francophone will promptly leave Quebec. Win/Win

Last edited by jambo101; 09-13-2013 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:14 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,360,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And therein lays the rub. The turban is NOT a religious edict of Sikhism. It is a tradition derived from their very early involvement in the fabric dying history of India. The turban came late to the game of Sikhism. Generations of Sikhs simply had long hair and beards without containing them.

Their religion dictates not cutting their hair or beards, yet they do both now.

Original Sikhs wore their hair down their backs but due to the dye vats they toiled away at, that hair would often end up dropping into the vats of dye while they were stirring fabrics within the vats. They found that the scrap ends cut off a weave of fabric came in handy to coil around their head to contain their unruly hair; HENCE the turban with it's preponderance of vivid colours; a traditional form of dress. Nothing more and nothing less.
They are prohibited from drinking alcohol also but those wearing turbans can often be seen attending political functions with a cocktail in their hands.

While in the armed forces, I regularly drank with Sikh commissionaires (security) of Esquimalt B.C. dockyard at the Tudor House Hotel and the local Legion branch where they would remove the Turban in one piece and put it on the shelf inside the door of many men's drinking rooms of the day. They had assembled their turbans with a bunch of bobby pins so it could be removed en-masse and put back on without having to re-wind it. Some of them had the long hair as dictated and wore a hair net under their turban while others had hair shorter than a recruits buzz-cut.

Much has been made of a traditional icon rather than a religious requirement. So to, with other traditions being confused with religious requirements.

Reading some history would serve our politicians well as they simply acede to demands without study and look where that has gotten us today.
I have mixed views on the proposed Charter but you make some excellent points here.

Likewise, the Coran does not say that women should weir veils or head coverings, but rather that they should dress with self-respect.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:31 AM
 
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Whether things were an original part of the religion or not, they become ingrained in it though. There are certain fundamental acts of Christianity that aren't in the bible but people consider them critical to the religion (enough so that if they were prohibited it would be considered discrimination against Christians), it's about how it evolves. Even if the Koran or other religious texts don't explicitly say "you must wear this hijab", it is understood as being critical now.

I'll be honest here, I'm an atheist and I think all these "sources" of the religious word were just written by the average joe and not from any divine being/prophet. But I do take issue with the fact that this charter is designed to specifically remove Muslims and Sikhs (in other words, the very visible minorities) from public view or influence. Somehow I imagine the PQ doesn't actually care about the Sikhs, they are just sort of lumped in due to the headgear (although I question that after the recent soccer hoopla). The PQ knows that Muslim women will quit their jobs before they remove the hijab. They know that Christians will be just fine with small crosses that are worn discretely. They know that certain religions (the Catholics/Protestants) can be accommodated by the 'discrete' objects and that certain others (Islam) cannot.

I take issue with the not so transparent fact that this is a slight against Muslims and other obvious visible minorities.

They simply don't fit in with the PQ's ideal "Quebec nation".
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:04 AM
 
34,389 posts, read 41,490,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2 View Post

I take issue with the not so transparent fact that this is a slight against Muslims and other obvious visible minorities.

They simply don't fit in with the PQ's ideal "Quebec nation".
A Charter of Quebec Values is IMO just plain wrong on several levels. However forget my opinion and wonder who would decide what is a Quebec value ?,use your imagination on how far the concept could be taken.
if passed are we to be subjected to a Quebec value of the week?
After the Jews,Sikhs,Muslims are thrown under the bus who or what is next? As if it becomes a Quebec value it would also then become the law.
Just think, anything the Quebec government doesnt like can become an obstacle to Quebec values and thereby eliminated in short order. Its not a Quebec value therefore its illegal .
This type of blank cheque legislation scares me and speaks to the lunacy of a government that would even table such a piece of bizarre legislation.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:16 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,268,124 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And therein lays the rub. The turban is NOT a religious edict of Sikhism. It is a tradition derived from their very early involvement in the fabric dying history of India. The turban came late to the game of Sikhism. Generations of Sikhs simply had long hair and beards without containing them.

Their religion dictates not cutting their hair or beards, yet they do both now.

Original Sikhs wore their hair down their backs but due to the dye vats they toiled away at, that hair would often end up dropping into the vats of dye while they were stirring fabrics within the vats. They found that the scrap ends cut off a weave of fabric came in handy to coil around their head to contain their unruly hair; HENCE the turban with it's preponderance of vivid colours; a traditional form of dress. Nothing more and nothing less.
They are prohibited from drinking alcohol also but those wearing turbans can often be seen attending political functions with a cocktail in their hands.

While in the armed forces, I regularly drank with Sikh commissionaires (security) of Esquimalt B.C. dockyard at the Tudor House Hotel and the local Legion branch where they would remove the Turban in one piece and put it on the shelf inside the door of many men's drinking rooms of the day. They had assembled their turbans with a bunch of bobby pins so it could be removed en-masse and put back on without having to re-wind it. Some of them had the long hair as dictated and wore a hair net under their turban while others had hair shorter than a recruits buzz-cut.

Much has been made of a traditional icon rather than a religious requirement. So to, with other traditions being confused with religious requirements.

Reading some history would serve our politicians well as they simply acede to demands without study and look where that has gotten us today.
Thanks for the clarification. Essentially all their religious practices are flexible. If something is required but is somehow inconvenient in real life, they simply choose not to do it.

The same with all those different forms of veils and hats. If they think the hats are more important than government jobs, then choose the hats. It is a personal choice. Stop saying they do not have a choice.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:35 AM
pdw
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,473 posts, read 1,964,893 times
Reputation: 857
Or how about live and let live? That's a choice as well.
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