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Old 09-13-2013, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliss2 View Post
Whether things were an original part of the religion or not, they become ingrained in it though. There are certain fundamental acts of Christianity that aren't in the bible but people consider them critical to the religion (enough so that if they were prohibited it would be considered discrimination against Christians), it's about how it evolves. Even if the Koran or other religious texts don't explicitly say "you must wear this hijab", it is understood as being critical now.

I'll be honest here, I'm an atheist and I think all these "sources" of the religious word were just written by the average joe and not from any divine being/prophet. But I do take issue with the fact that this charter is designed to specifically remove Muslims and Sikhs (in other words, the very visible minorities) from public view or influence. Somehow I imagine the PQ doesn't actually care about the Sikhs, they are just sort of lumped in due to the headgear (although I question that after the recent soccer hoopla). The PQ knows that Muslim women will quit their jobs before they remove the hijab. They know that Christians will be just fine with small crosses that are worn discretely. They know that certain religions (the Catholics/Protestants) can be accommodated by the 'discrete' objects and that certain others (Islam) cannot.

I take issue with the not so transparent fact that this is a slight against Muslims and other obvious visible minorities.

They simply don't fit in with the PQ's ideal "Quebec nation".
The proposed charter is not only about headgear - it is also about clothing in general.

When you think about it the group most affected is likely to be the Roman Catholic one, as priests, nuns and monks all wear distinctive clothing.

Probably the single largest group (by far) of religious-attired people working in the public and para-public sector in Quebec would be Roman Catholic nuns.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:57 AM
 
2,291 posts, read 3,941,799 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
Estimates aren't population counts. Censuses are. No matter what you say, they are still a guess. The world isn't flat because we can see from space that it's not. Quebec's population is only 7.9 million because we counted the people living in Quebec.
"Population estimates provide a more accurate measure of population counts [than the census]."

Statistics Canada's "opinion", not mine. Read the link.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,569 posts, read 9,444,780 times
Reputation: 6740
Here is an opinion from a professor at McGill:

The Yoke of Neutrality | First Things
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,569 posts, read 9,444,780 times
Reputation: 6740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The proposed charter is not only about headgear - it is also about clothing in general.

When you think about it the group most affected is likely to be the Roman Catholic one, as priests, nuns and monks all wear distinctive clothing.

Probably the single largest group (by far) of religious-attired people working in the public and para-public sector in Quebec would be Roman Catholic nuns.

Most of the nuns I have met dress like librarians. I doubt there are many nuns left in Quebec.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,710 posts, read 8,789,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not saying this is the only aspect of the debate but if the future looks like all or even most of our women in niqabs or burkas then it looks a hell of a lot like the (not-so-glorious nor enlightened) past to me.
That's not the kind of future I envision. Take any new immigrant group. The children of these groups do not follow the same traditions as their parents. Heck even some of the women in Vancouver that wear veils, take them off when in grocery stores shopping, since they know hubby or the male figure isn't around.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
That's not the kind of future I envision. Take any new immigrant group. The children of these groups do not follow the same traditions as their parents. Heck even some of the women in Vancouver that wear veils, take them off when in grocery stores shopping, since they know hubby or the male figure isn't around.
Agreed. I am already seeing it with some of my kids' friends.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:20 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,998,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Of course they don't wear them 24/7. Even the Pope gets naked once in a while.
Reading this thread was depressing. This line made my day! Hilarious!
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:37 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,998,862 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
And therein lays the rub. The turban is NOT a religious edict of Sikhism. It is a tradition derived from their very early involvement in the fabric dying history of India. The turban came late to the game of Sikhism. Generations of Sikhs simply had long hair and beards without containing them.

Their religion dictates not cutting their hair or beards, yet they do both now.

Original Sikhs wore their hair down their backs but due to the dye vats they toiled away at, that hair would often end up dropping into the vats of dye while they were stirring fabrics within the vats. They found that the scrap ends cut off a weave of fabric came in handy to coil around their head to contain their unruly hair; HENCE the turban with it's preponderance of vivid colours; a traditional form of dress. Nothing more and nothing less.
They are prohibited from drinking alcohol also but those wearing turbans can often be seen attending political functions with a cocktail in their hands.
Where did you get this information from? Mostly ... it is incorrect - a polished 2013 version of Sikh history. None of these are the TRUE reasons behind Sikhs wearing turbans, or even the reasons behind the formation of Sikhism as a religion in a predominantly Hindu India.

You think a group of Hindus in India woke up one fine day and decided to form their own religion that requires them to grow their hair, beard, carry a knife, wear a bangle and turban?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:53 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,998,862 times
Reputation: 1027
I made some points on this topic a while back on this forum on the whole Burqa debate. Who is to decide what is a religious symbol and what is a cultural symbol?

Frankly, no one knows. It seems like you need a PHD in religions and history to figure all this out. Some Muslims tell me that they wear the burqa and hijab to feel closer to their prophet and that the prophet's wife dressed like that. Other Muslims tell me that the burqa serves no purpose in the religion.

Some Sikhs tell me that the turban is a core component of the religion. Others tell me that it is an old symbol and serves no purpose today.

Who are we supposed to believe? Is there a religious authority that we can refer to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Much has been made of a traditional icon rather than a religious requirement. So to, with other traditions being confused with religious requirements.

Reading some history would serve our politicians well as they simply acede to demands without study and look where that has gotten us today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

Likewise, the Coran does not say that women should weir veils or head coverings, but rather that they should dress with self-respect.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:59 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,998,862 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
What freedom? If a women can wear a burqa in government job, can I wear a hat that has an antenna 3 meters high? Can I be shirtless smeared with mud and teach kids maths? Can I paint my entire face and neck green and work at the public library?
I knew that you would get attacked for saying this. I faced some of that during the burqa debate on this very forum. Wearing head gear to please your imaginary friend in the sky is no more bizarre than painting your face green in solidarity with the alien race living on planet Dzotz.

Maybe the pseudo-liberals might start defending those against religious symbols in the workplace if they themselves formed a religion that forbids them from interacting with people wearing other religious symbols.
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