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Old 10-10-2013, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,265 posts, read 13,152,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
I'm opposed to all things that cause death. Death penalty, war, euthanasia and everything else. There is no greater good when it comes to death. You can't recover from death. That's how I see things.


Plan on stopping the aging process, do ya?



Anyway, if/when you get a dibilitating disease/injury (and I truly hope you do not), you'll be singing a different tune. I garuntee it.
Geez. I hope you don't have any cats or dogs at home. Poor things are gonna have a stroke and you're just going to let them drag their back feet around in the dirt until they die.


Please tell me you watched this video that sandman posted? Put yourself in his shoes for 4 minutes.


Dr. Donald Low's posthumous plea for assisted suicide - YouTube
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:32 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,255,922 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
[

Vulnerable people
If such a law is passed, how do you protect the elderly, disabled, and mentally incompetent? Some would argue that such laws reinforce the idea that lives of the sick and disabled are not worth living.
In fact, most disability advocate groups (at least in the US) are against assisted suicide ....
why is this even an argument?
doesn't it have to be voluntary? If someone wants to live in great pain for 20 years, nobody can force him to die.

the law doesn't reinforce anything. It offers a choice. Why do we already read too much? Allowing someone to die is different from asking someone to die, and we are acting like giving this option itself is disrespect for life.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
564 posts, read 877,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
To me, it seems like a giant step backwards going from ending the death penalty to allowing this. Let's hope that this doesn't spread to the rest of the country.
I don't understand how you can see it this way. Do you object to injured and suffering animals being "put down" to end their misery? I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where it is best to let a person suffer to the very end when there is no hope at all for recovery and they do not want to go on living. Seems to me this is only to delay the inevitable and satisfy the selfish needs of loved ones to "hold on".

Give them peace and dignity. Let them go out on their own terms. Why is this such an offensive concept?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
I'm opposed to all things that cause death. Death penalty, war, euthanasia and everything else. There is no greater good when it comes to death. You can't recover from death. That's how I see things.
Aren't we all? But we have to accept reality for what it is. Death is inevitable and is part of the cycle of all living things. When it happens beyond your control, yes, that is a tragic thing. But I see no tragedy in easing the suffering of someone who has no other recourse and only wants to end their life on their own terms, at a time of their own choosing. Isn't that a beautiful thing? Shouldn't we all be so lucky?
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:21 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,994,094 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
why is this even an argument?
doesn't it have to be voluntary? If someone wants to live in great pain for 20 years, nobody can force him to die.

the law doesn't reinforce anything. It offers a choice. Why do we already read too much? Allowing someone to die is different from asking someone to die, and we are acting like giving this option itself is disrespect for life.
Well, what is "voluntary" for patients with deficits in brain function - as is the case in most dementias and neurological diseases.

For example:
Wanting to end your life is a common symptom of Alzheimer's disease - and is generally a sign of depression. Most neurologists treat AD patients who "want to end their life".

There are 1000s of exceptions like this ....
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,522 posts, read 9,405,124 times
Reputation: 6675
Is there no end to Canada's progressivism?
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:34 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,994,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Since you've read on this subject -- can you point me to some studies regarding the first part of the quote? You know, correlation isn't causation, etc. I'm genuinely interested in that type of studies.
Not sure if you have access to those journal articles I posted earlier, but do a quick search on The New England journal of medicine, and there are a lot of studies on assisted suicide in the Netherlands.

Here's another interesting bit from Euthanasia, Physician-Assisted Suicide, and Other Medical Practices Involving the End of Life in the Netherlands, 19901995. NEJM. Paul J. van der Maas.


Quote:
Ending Life without the Explicit Request of the Patient
Among the physicians interviewed, 23 percent said that at some time they had ended a patient's life without his or her explicit request, and 32 percent said that they had never done so but that they could conceive of a situation in which they would, whereas 45 percent said that they had never done so and could not conceive of any situation in which they would. The corresponding figures in the 1990 study were 27 percent, 32 percent, and 41 percent, respectively.
The patients whose lives were ended without their explicit request also tended to be relatively young, and cancer was the predominant diagnosis (in the interview study, 60 percent of all cases involved cancer). In 57 percent of all cases, clinical specialists were involved. Table 4TABLE 4
Characteristics of Various Types of Medical Decisions Related to the End of Life in the Death-Certificate Study.
shows some of the characteristics of the decisions made in these cases in the death-certificate study, the drugs administered, and the estimated interval by which the patient's life was shortened. In about half of all the cases, either the decision was discussed with the patient earlier in the illness or the patient had expressed a wish for euthanasia if suffering became unbearable. In the other cases the patient was incompetent. In 95 percent of cases, the decision was discussed with colleagues, nursing staff, or relatives (or usually some combination of the three). In 64 percent of all cases in which life had been ended without the patient's explicit request, morphine was the only drug administered, whereas in 18 percent neuromuscular relaxants were used in various combinations. In 33 percent of cases life was shortened by 24 hours at most, and in a further 58 percent it was shortened by at most one week. In the interview study the proportions were similar to those in the death-certificate study.
Further scrutiny of the case histories in the interview study showed that decisions to end life without the patient's request covered a wide range of situations, with a large group of patients having only a few hours or days to live, whereas a small number had a longer life expectancy but were evidently suffering greatly, with verbal contact no longer possible. The characteristics in Table 4 suggest that most of the cases in which life was ended without the patient's explicit request were more similar to cases involving the use of large doses of opioids than to cases of euthanasia. As compared with 1990, there was a small decrease in the proportion of these cases.
Quote:
Regarding the second point -- the process of writing and guiding the implementation of 'assisted suicide' laws has been extremely long and careful, and the main point is that if there is any kind of doubt that the person understands the implications and still wants to die, it will not happen. Or am I wrong?
Just because it is long and careful doesn't mean that it is fool-proof. Just look at the incidences of failed assisted suicides in Netherlands (where it is legal). By definition, a person suffering from mental and physical deficits cannot be 100% sure of the decisions he/she is taking. I mean, in Canada we prevent most dementia patients from taking decisions with legal ramifications. Heck, we don't even let dementia patients drive! How can we now allow them to volunteer for physician assisted suicide?
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:58 AM
 
2,288 posts, read 3,932,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Just because it is long and careful doesn't mean that it is fool-proof. Just look at the incidences of failed assisted suicides in Netherlands (where it is legal). By definition, a person suffering from mental and physical deficits cannot be 100% sure of the decisions he/she is taking. I mean, in Canada we prevent most dementia patients from taking decisions with legal ramifications. Heck, we don't even let dementia patients drive! How can we now allow them to volunteer for physician assisted suicide?
I don't see how you can write "by definition" for all mental and physical disabilities, and then conveniently use dementia, the most obvious case of a sickness that hinders one from taking educated decisions. There are many, many people with various diseases who are perfectly able to take decisions, and if they want to take the decision to end their life but cannot do it themselves, then they should be able to get assistance.

Last edited by barneyg; 10-11-2013 at 09:09 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:32 AM
 
1,701 posts, read 1,994,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
I don't see how you can write "by definition" for all mental and physical disabilities, and then conveniently use dementia, the most obvious case of a sickness that hinders one from taking educated decisions. There are many, many people with various diseases who are perfectly able to take decisions, and if they want to take the decision to end their life but cannot do it themselves, then they should be able to get assistance.
Well, I said "by definition" and "cannot be 100% sure". Not sure how that is incorrect.

And dementia is not a specific disease but an umbrella term for a variety of brain disorders. The common forms of dementia are Alzheimer's disease, Lewy bodies, mild cognitive impairment etc.

In 2011, 747,000 Canadians were living with cognitive impairment, including dementia - that's 14.9% of Canadians 65 and older. So dementia is not trivial by any means. How would a law on assisted suicide deal with people with dementia? That's a question worth raising. Do you have an answer?

Facts about dementia

We can all appreciate that assisted suicide is a very tricky proposition that has more exceptions than rules. To deny that would be foolish. This statement was released by the AD society that operates in both, Canada and the US.
Suicide and Assisted Suicide. ETHICAL ISSUES IN ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE
http://www.alz.org/alzwa/documents/a...cal_issues.pdf

Some legal issues in other countries:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10...-own-life.html

Last edited by sandman249; 10-11-2013 at 09:43 AM.. Reason: added links, info
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:01 AM
 
2,288 posts, read 3,932,287 times
Reputation: 2055
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Well, I said "by definition" and "cannot be 100% sure". Not sure how that is incorrect.

And dementia is not a specific disease but an umbrella term for a variety of brain disorders. The common forms of dementia are Alzheimer's disease, Lewy bodies, mild cognitive impairment etc.

In 2011, 747,000 Canadians were living with cognitive impairment, including dementia - that's 14.9% of Canadians 65 and older. So dementia is not trivial by any means. How would a law on assisted suicide deal with people with dementia? That's a question worth raising. Do you have an answer?
Did your assertion imply that someone cannot be 100% sure of his/her decision because of his/her mental or physical disability? That's how I interpreted it. Or did you mean that someone cannot ever be 100% sure of any decision, regardless of a mental or physical disability?

I never wrote or implied that dementia is trivial, and how an assisted suicide law would treat people with dementia is definitely a question worth raising. (My stance on this issue is uneducated and irrelevant.) It is your 'matter of fact' use of dementia as a general example of "mental or physical deficits" that I take issue with.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:08 PM
 
34,365 posts, read 41,446,089 times
Reputation: 29853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Is there no end to Canada's progressivism?
I dont see a problem with Canadas progressiveness.

Quote:
progressivism

Web definitions
the political orientation of those who favor progress toward better conditions in government and society.
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