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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 03-16-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,027 posts, read 6,317,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
Thanks for saying it, Quebec would definately want a peaceful separation, considering its vulnerable position in this context, so the ball is in Canada's court afterall.
Unless Quebec pays for the military hardware, highways, air facilities and ratable portion of the Federal debt why should Canada want it to be peaceful. Ulysses S. Grant supplies the appropriate road map. Appomattox was actually rather peaceful.

Frankly, all of this was settled between Montcalm and Wolfe on the Plains of Abraham.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There aren't many examples of separations involving western democraties in the last 50 or 100 years... I can't think of any. The Scandinavian countries were long ago and Czechoslovakia was not a western democracy. Neither was Kosovo, Croatia, Montenegro, East Timor, Slovenia, etc.
Even though I am anti-separatist, to be fair, Czechoslovakia had existed as a Western democracy during the inter-war period and was again such a democracy from November 1989 on. It is an example of the way a split should happen if necessary.

However, Canada has more investment in Quebec than Quebec can possibly afford to repay. That is the nub of the problem and no referendum question complying with the Clarity Act will quantify that Quebec will be in deep financial trouble the minute it separates. Czechoslovakia was already fully milked by the USSR.
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Old 03-17-2015, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
It already has.

In 1998, the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) made its decision in the Reference Re Secession of Quebec, [1998] 2 S.C.R. 217. In that case, the Court ruled on whether Quebec could unilaterally decide to secede from Canada under Canadian and international law. The answer in both instances was, legally-speaking, No. But the Court went on to say that if a clear majority of Quebecers voted for independence on a clear question, then the government of Canada would have a moral/ethical obligation to enter into negotiations that could lead to the separation of Quebec. (This is an extremely brief answer; for the full story, see the SCC's entire decision: Reference re Secession of Quebec - SCC Cases (Lexum))

With the points made by the SCC in the Reference Re Secession of Quebec firmly in mind, the Canadian Parliament drafted and passed the Clarity Act S.C. 2000, c. 26, two years later.

So, the Clarity Act has already passed the Supreme Court test.
Thanks for the infos, so I guess that the next battle will be to constest the clear majority percentage level. how can they justify clear, 71%, 73% 64%, 51,5%, 98%

Last edited by Guytar1220; 03-17-2015 at 04:14 AM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:07 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbubbles81 View Post
Catalonia also doesn't border America. America would look very, very, poorly on a Canada that ignores a popular vote for independence in Quebec.



I agree, let's keep it real!

There are numerous splits that were engineered democratically and they have worked out well. Iceland peacefully split from us, and we are quite cordial. Norway and Sweden is another one. They are good friends. Not to mention the obvious one, your own country Canada and Great Britain. Is it an ugly situation between you two? Nope. Czechoslovakia as well, they have offered another model for how a peaceful diplomatic split can lead to more prosperity and better relations between two groups of people.

Since we are keeping it real, I can't think of many countries that split peacefully under a democratic vote and then became enemies - can you?
Its not a matter of America looking down or up or sideways on the matter.. America is going to share the same economic/military (through existing defense treaties etc) concerns as Canada would with another sovereign player in town. The U.S has had a good century dealing with Canada and developing all that so they are going to have some similar issues the R.O.C would have. Spain is an ally - a modern day example ally of the U.S as well.. Both countries are part of Nato - the U.S isn't flexing its muscle with it and really - the U.S itself didn't really look to democracy or a popular vote for its own separatists from a historical perspective so I'm not really seeing your point trying to introduce the 'big brother' card into this.

To the second part - i'm not saying that Quebec and Canada - couldn't be 'friends' but that will largely depend on how the terms of negotiation play out.. Unlike the countries mentioned, Canada is far larger and there are some geographical differences.. There are other differences as well obviously. I think if both Quebec and Canada are able to amicably negotiate terms that meet needs of both than it will go a long way but that remains to be seen - it'll take a while for the dust to settle

Last edited by fusion2; 03-17-2015 at 05:04 AM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViveLeQuebecLibre View Post
No I'm sorry but I haven't demanded anything. I think a separate Québec is the only option because I don't believe in "demanding" anything. It is up to the people of Québec to agree with this, not for Canada to give.

I get a feeling that you are saying French Quebecer=making demands. I can see why some other posters can be called making demands, but I have no demands to ask for, my only demand is that Canada gives us the right to vote on the issue, so my only possible demand is already a fulfillment. I'm sorry if there has been any confusion!
I think Canada will give Quebec the opportunity to vote on the issue and if a clear majority in Quebec (those eligible to vote that you want to have changed to ensure 'victory' right?) than I do think the country will enter into negotations.. That is where it'll get interesting - what those negotiations will entail and what the country will look like thereafter but the key word here is negotiate terms...

Last edited by fusion2; 03-17-2015 at 05:06 AM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
Thanks for the infos, so I guess that the next battle will be to constest the clear majority percentage level. how can they justify clear, 71%, 73% 64%, 51,5%, 98%
Yeah its interesting how they didn't put a number to it like 51 or 55 etc.. The language is vague there and to me gives the first glimpse of how this will play out if it happens.

Last edited by fusion2; 03-17-2015 at 04:28 AM..
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:29 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,381 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Unless Quebec pays for the military hardware, highways, air facilities and ratable portion of the Federal debt why should Canada want it to be peaceful. Ulysses S. Grant supplies the appropriate road map. Appomattox was actually rather peaceful.

Frankly, all of this was settled between Montcalm and Wolfe on the Plains of Abraham.Even though I am anti-separatist, to be fair, Czechoslovakia had existed as a Western democracy during the inter-war period and was again such a democracy from November 1989 on. It is an example of the way a split should happen if necessary.

However, Canada has more investment in Quebec than Quebec can possibly afford to repay. That is the nub of the problem and no referendum question complying with the Clarity Act will quantify that Quebec will be in deep financial trouble the minute it separates. Czechoslovakia was already fully milked by the USSR.
Share debt is fair, paying for roads, military, etc? an alimony with that? Quebec is 25% of Canada, don't you think it paid it share on the 25% of all Canadian goods? BTW Quebec is ok with leaving the British submarines though...just kidding we did a mistake as a team, we may assume as a team
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,176,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
Share debt is fair, paying for roads, military, etc? an alimony with that? Quebec is 25% of Canada, don't you think it paid it share on the 25% of all Canadian goods? BTW Quebec is ok with leaving the British submarines though...just kidding we did a mistake as a team, we may assume as a team
There are a whole host of things that need to be dealt with beyond the debt.. Debt is a big one and also needs to be taken into account is what Quebec's borrowing rates are going to be assuming the debt it agrees to in terms of separation on top of exisiting debt the Province has.. Transfer payments aren't big but those gone too... Than of course you have treaties and other trade agreements.. I have seen the separatist side detail much in the way of getting to the point of a vote and voila - its a yes and it is a clear majority yippie, woohoo fireworks - little in the way of details regarding negotiations and how things will happen after that. It happened with Salmand as well - when asked a lot of practical questions on the day after tomorrow it increasingly became a deer caught in the headlights look. He had the emotional argument down pat - the practical details were where things kind of just fell apart. Funny comment about the subs - Canada should GIVE Quebec those
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Old 03-17-2015, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Denmark
74 posts, read 57,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Ask South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas (the first tranche of states) and ultimately Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas and Tennessee that question.
What on earth are you even talking about?
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,967 posts, read 27,436,169 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
It already has.

In 1998, the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) made its decision in the Reference Re Secession of Quebec, [1998] 2 S.C.R. 217. In that case, the Court ruled on whether Quebec could unilaterally decide to secede from Canada under Canadian and international law. The answer in both instances was, legally-speaking, No. But the Court went on to say that if a clear majority of Quebecers voted for independence on a clear question, then the government of Canada would have a moral/ethical obligation to enter into negotiations that could lead to the separation of Quebec. (This is an extremely brief answer; for the full story, see the SCC's entire decision: Reference re Secession of Quebec - SCC Cases (Lexum))

With the points made by the SCC in the Reference Re Secession of Quebec firmly in mind, the Canadian Parliament drafted and passed the Clarity Act S.C. 2000, c. 26, two years later.

So, the Clarity Act has already passed the Supreme Court test.
This is very true. The Clarity Act is largely based on the Supreme Court reference as you say.

In any event, independence isn't always something you ask permission for or get the other party to agree with happily. Often, it's a "damn the torpedoes full speed ahead" kind of thing that just happens.

My guess is that it would be quite difficult both politically and internationally for Canada to disregard a Oui vote with something like a 54% majority. That's probably why the Clarity Act is so ambiguous on this particular point.

That kind of Oui vote might not lead to hard/outright independence for Quebec but it would almost certainly shake the foundations of Canada's political structure and lead to a profound altering of the way we are governed.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,967 posts, read 27,436,169 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
However, Canada has more investment in Quebec than Quebec can possibly afford to repay. That is the nub of the problem and no referendum question complying with the Clarity Act will quantify that Quebec will be in deep financial trouble the minute it separates. Czechoslovakia was already fully milked by the USSR.
Hmm. The "Canada" that has invested in Quebec for all of these years is also financially supported by the taxes of people in Quebec.
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