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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 03-18-2015, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,947 posts, read 27,348,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
I should have specified that the microbiology was a joke

The real democracy is coming from the people, not the parliament.

You think that the Quebecers were not smart enough to understand what was going on? It shoes that you can't conceived that independence is a noble will. BTW I don't think that any form of alliance proposed earlier will be in a next referendum (if there is). The sovreignity-association was proved to be a failure, so the next time there is a question it will much simpler.
I appreciate ChevySpoons' insights which are very good but have to agree with you on this. It's a popular yarn or meme(?) in anglo circles that many people in Quebec didn't know what they were voting on in 1995 and that this explains the high Oui score. As in any vote, you have the electorate that you have, and so every person can interpret things in the way they want.

Still, the entire province was plastered with signs like this by the Non side, so I assume every voter saw these at least once and knew that separation of some kind was on the table:


Furthermore, a number of people also most certainly voted Non under false pretenses (citizenship issues, non-resident issues, etc.) or based on scare tactics and false information: many immigrant community leaders told their people that they would all be deported "back home" (sic) if the Oui side won, for example.

In the end, it probably evened itself out.

A virtual dead heat with a tiny drop in favour of staying with Canada fits the mood of the day/era extremely well I'd say.
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,023,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjour185 View Post
The question is for francophones in Québe right? Why would you ask an anglo-Quebecer when they are not part of the nation of Québec? They are almost totally against it. When a guy moves from Ontario to Québec is he part of the Québecois nation? No, he is just a Canadian who happens to be living in Québec.
You are exactly right. Many people fail to grasp what a nation really means. The modernist interpretation is that a nation is merely everyone living within the borders of a legally sovereign state. This isn't so and is completely contrary to reality. A nation is a group of people with a shared common bond. In the case of Quebecois, they are a distinct people, a nation. Unfortunately, mainstream Quebec separatism is still a fundamentally cosmopolitan movement, albeit slightly less so than the mainstream opposing side (i.e., it is opposed to linguistic cosmopolitanism because it correctly sees how this comes at the expense of the French language in Quebec).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjour185 View Post
It is like with Scottish independence, the English inhabitants of Scotland voted on independence, even though they are not Scottish. Why are they being asked?
They are being asked because they live there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbubbles81 View Post
Catalonia also doesn't border America. America would look very, very, poorly on a Canada that ignores a popular vote for independence in Quebec.
Are you talking about the American government or the American people? The views of the government don't necessarily reflect those of the people. The US government wouldn't care one way or the other except insofar as it suits the government's interests. I'm not sure whether the US government would see it as a significant matter of interest either way. However, if anything, I'd wager the US government would be opposed to it.

As for the American people, well, if we neglect the fact that many, if not most, wouldn't care much one way or the other (or wouldn't know enough about the situation to care), I'm not sure they'd be in favor of Quebec separating because it's not really in (English) Canada's best interests (particularly so for the English Canadians living in Quebec). Since Americans naturally share a greater common bond with English-speaking Canadians, I'd say we'd be more likely to support their interests. It's just like how Russians are naturally hostile to Ukrainian nationalism: they see it as against the best interests of the country's ethnic Russian minority. Same situation in the Baltics.
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Old 03-18-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Montreal
359 posts, read 264,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
As for the American people, well, if we neglect the fact that many, if not most, wouldn't care much one way or the other (or wouldn't know enough about the situation to care), I'm not sure they'd be in favor of Quebec separating because it's not really in (English) Canada's best interests (particularly so for the English Canadians living in Quebec). Since Americans naturally share a greater common bond with English-speaking Canadians, I'd say we'd be more likely to support their interests. It's just like how Russians are naturally hostile to Ukrainian nationalism: they see it as against the best interests of the country's ethnic Russian minority. Same situation in the Baltics.
Aren't Americans opposed to monarchy and more inclined to support a democratic republic? I'm not a separatist, but I've seen more than a fair share of Americans who sound like they support Quebec independence, compared to anglo Canadians who are more often than not inherently hostile.
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Old 03-18-2015, 05:41 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,023,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
Aren't Americans opposed to monarchy and more inclined to support a democratic republic? I'm not a separatist, but I've seen more than a fair share of Americans who sound like they support Quebec independence, compared to anglo Canadians who are more often than not inherently hostile.
Canada is only nominally a monarchy. Americans are even likely to find the British monarchy quaint and innocuous. There's little opposition to the idea of the British monarchy except for that which comes from certain ideologues. But you've brought up an interesting point. Why shouldn't Americans support the idea of Quebec independence if (on paper) the style of government Quebec would then have would look more like that of this country? I'd say we're still more likely to favor the interests of English Canadians because we have more in common with them. The common heritage and language are stronger than the different forms of government.

I think the identity of the common folk is far more important than the system of government. I have no particular attachment to our system of government. I'd be just as likely to support a monarchy, with the stipulation that the monarch be a benign one. You don't form a nation on the basis of principles or philosophy of governance, but on common heritage and culture. Language is certainly a big part of that. Look no further than Quebec nationalism for proof of this. But Americans are taught that our system of government is an important facet of who we are (which has always really bothered me because that's such a vacuous way to forge an identity), so you may have a point after all.

Still, I think most Americans instinctively find more in common with English Canadians.
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Nation du Québec
237 posts, read 185,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Canada is only nominally a monarchy. Americans are even likely to find the British monarchy quaint and innocuous. There's little opposition to the idea of the British monarchy except for that which comes from certain ideologues. But you've brought up an interesting point. Why shouldn't Americans support the idea of Quebec independence if (on paper) the style of government Quebec would then have would look more like that of this country? I'd say we're still more likely to favor the interests of English Canadians because we have more in common with them. The common heritage and language are stronger than the different forms of government.

I think the identity of the common folk is far more important than the system of government. I have no particular attachment to our system of government. I'd be just as likely to support a monarchy, with the stipulation that the monarch be a benign one. You don't form a nation on the basis of principles or philosophy of governance, but on common heritage and culture. Language is certainly a big part of that. Look no further than Quebec nationalism for proof of this. But Americans are taught that our system of government is an important facet of who we are (which has always really bothered me because that's such a vacuous way to forge an identity), so you may have a point after all.

Still, I think most Americans instinctively find more in common with English Canadians.
This is ironic, because English Canada is very anti-American. Their nation is founded on anti-American ideologies and this way of thinking shapes their identity and culture. In Quebec we like America much more than the English Canadians who like to be nice to your face and hate you guys behind your back. Even though America protects Canada and makes it rich.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:14 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,023,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjour185 View Post
This is ironic, because English Canada is very anti-American. Their nation is founded on anti-American ideologies and this way of thinking shapes their identity and culture.
If that's so, I would say America is anti-American, since our government is actively hostile to our own interests. So if being "anti-American" means being opposed to the American government, then that's great. Anyone who cares about our country should feel the same way. As for the idea that Canadians could be "anti-American" in the sense that, say, ISIS is anti-American, well, that's preposterous. That is true anti-Americanism (hatred of Americans and Westerners in general, not just the American government).

You're got a point when you say that Canada is essentially anti-American when one considers its different founding principles and system of government. But that just highlights my point that it's absurd to define a nation or national identity on a system of government! It's also absurd to think that such a thing dictates cultural proximity. English Canadians and Americans share a rather common identity and heritage. It's distinct, of course, and should remain that way. But it's still pretty similar, to the point that it can be hard to tell us apart. The only possible argument you could make is that the US betrayed our British brethren by rebelling, whereas Canada remained loyal. I would indeed be inclined to side with the loyalist argument. But so many generations have passed since that time that I think it's irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonjour185 View Post
In Quebec we like America much more than the English Canadians who like to be nice to your face and hate you guys behind your back. Even though America protects Canada and makes it rich.
Americans joke about Canadians all the time. It doesn't change the fact that it's still the country we view most favorably: In U.S., Canada Places First in Image Contest; Iran Last

I'm not saying anything bad about French Canadians. I do strong relate to their desire to preserve their culture and language. I favor strong protections of their language, culture, and heritage. However, some of the current laws are inappropriately burdensome for the English minority, such as the signs law. Communities with a sufficiently large English-speaking population in Quebec should be exempt from the sign law. However, I think the language laws are mostly fine otherwise.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:55 PM
 
18,273 posts, read 10,374,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
If that's so, I would say America is anti-American, since our government is actively hostile to our own interests. So if being "anti-American" means being opposed to the American government, then that's great. Anyone who cares about our country should feel the same way. As for the idea that Canadians could be "anti-American" in the sense that, say, ISIS is anti-American, well, that's preposterous. That is true anti-Americanism (hatred of Americans and Westerners in general, not just the American government).

You're got a point when you say that Canada is essentially anti-American when one considers its different founding principles and system of government. But that just highlights my point that it's absurd to define a nation or national identity on a system of government! It's also absurd to think that such a thing dictates cultural proximity. English Canadians and Americans share a rather common identity and heritage. It's distinct, of course, and should remain that way. But it's still pretty similar, to the point that it can be hard to tell us apart. The only possible argument you could make is that the US betrayed our British brethren by rebelling, whereas Canada remained loyal. I would indeed be inclined to side with the loyalist argument. But so many generations have passed since that time that I think it's irrelevant.
Americans joke about Canadians all the time. It doesn't change the fact that it's still the country we view most favorably: In U.S., Canada Places First in Image Contest; Iran Last

I'm not saying anything bad about French Canadians. I do strong relate to their desire to preserve their culture and language. I favor strong protections of their language, culture, and heritage. However, some of the current laws are inappropriately burdensome for the English minority, such as the signs law. Communities with a sufficiently large English-speaking population in Quebec should be exempt from the sign law. However, I think the language laws are mostly fine otherwise.
That's the part Bonjour won't like at all; the part where he purports to like English America while using discriminatory methods to suppress ANYTHING English related, especially language, with no seeming understanding of what it is that Americans loath about overt displays of duplicity.

When the chips are down America knows full well, from many past examples, just how Canada and Candians feel about the historical relationship with America.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Canada
325 posts, read 295,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
If that's so, I would say America is anti-American, since our government is actively hostile to our own interests. So if being "anti-American" means being opposed to the American government, then that's great. Anyone who cares about our country should feel the same way. As for the idea that Canadians could be "anti-American" in the sense that, say, ISIS is anti-American, well, that's preposterous. That is true anti-Americanism (hatred of Americans and Westerners in general, not just the American government).

You're got a point when you say that Canada is essentially anti-American when one considers its different founding principles and system of government. But that just highlights my point that it's absurd to define a nation or national identity on a system of government! It's also absurd to think that such a thing dictates cultural proximity. English Canadians and Americans share a rather common identity and heritage. It's distinct, of course, and should remain that way. But it's still pretty similar, to the point that it can be hard to tell us apart. The only possible argument you could make is that the US betrayed our British brethren by rebelling, whereas Canada remained loyal. I would indeed be inclined to side with the loyalist argument. But so many generations have passed since that time that I think it's irrelevant.
Americans joke about Canadians all the time. It doesn't change the fact that it's still the country we view most favorably: In U.S., Canada Places First in Image Contest; Iran Last

I'm not saying anything bad about French Canadians. I do strong relate to their desire to preserve their culture and language. I favor strong protections of their language, culture, and heritage. However, some of the current laws are inappropriately burdensome for the English minority, such as the signs law. Communities with a sufficiently large English-speaking population in Quebec should be exempt from the sign law. However, I think the language laws are mostly fine otherwise.
Bonjour185 is right, I know it doesn't look like that in the US, but a lot of English Canadians hate the US. Believe me, I am bilingual, and have spent a lot of time in the US. French Canadians are usually a lot more positive about the US than English Canadians. It is almost a religion to hate Americans in anglophone Canada. If you are a politician and want to get elected, all you have to do is insult the Americans, and voila, you will get a surge of support. It's shameful, but it's true. It isn't the usual European type of anti-Americanism, it's the type of anti-Americanism where the very identity of English Canadians rely on a fundamental bigotry towards Americans. I was appalled that some of my son's teachers are teaching him that crap. Americans = arrogant, materialistic, rude, racist, ignorant, war-loving while Canadian = nice, polite, kind, tolerant, righteous. Some people embrace it, others see it for what it is. Generally French Canadians don't have this chip on their shoulder and view the US as a friendly neighbour. Remember that English Canadians are the loyalists, and you rebels stole 90% of their land! BTW did you live in Canada? Not saying your expectations aren't valid, I just want to know your frame of reference.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:41 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,023,804 times
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Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Bonjour185 is right, I know it doesn't look like that in the US, but a lot of English Canadians hate the US. Believe me, I am bilingual, and have spent a lot of time in the US. French Canadians are usually a lot more positive about the US than English Canadians. It is almost a religion to hate Americans in anglophone Canada. If you are a politician and want to get elected, all you have to do is insult the Americans, and voila, you will get a surge of support. It's shameful, but it's true. It isn't the usual European type of anti-Americanism, it's the type of anti-Americanism where the very identity of English Canadians rely on a fundamental bigotry towards Americans. I was appalled that some of my son's teachers are teaching him that crap. Americans = arrogant, materialistic, rude, racist, ignorant, war-loving while Canadian = nice, polite, kind, tolerant, righteous. Some people embrace it, others see it for what it is. Generally French Canadians don't have this chip on their shoulder and view the US as a friendly neighbour. Remember that English Canadians are the loyalists, and you rebels stole 90% of their land! BTW did you live in Canada? Not saying your expectations aren't valid, I just want to know your frame of reference.
I've heard all that before, but I don't find it very convincing. The same arguments could be applied to divisions between Americans, such as between Northerners and Southerners. Yet few even see the Southern US as a separate nation (I tend toward the view that it is). Also, it would seem more akin to a sibling rivalry than true hatred. You could say a rivalry also exists between, say, the US and Russia. What makes it different is Russia isn't quite as much a "sibling" as Canada is.

Also, you could say a similar sort of political rivalry exists on this side of the border as well, such as ridiculous political attacks on Canada's healthcare system from US "conservatives."

I've never lived in Canada. I've visited Ontario (four times) and Quebec (once).
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Canada
170 posts, read 137,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
I've heard all that before, but I don't find it very convincing. The same arguments could be applied to divisions between Americans, such as between Northerners and Southerners. Yet few even see the Southern US as a separate nation (I tend toward the view that it is). Also, it would seem more akin to a sibling rivalry than true hatred. You could say a rivalry also exists between, say, the US and Russia. What makes it different is Russia isn't quite as much a 'sibling&amp' as Canada is.

Also, you could say a similar sort of political rivalry exists on this side of the border as well, such as ridiculous political attacks on Canada's healthcare system from US "conservatives."

I've never lived in Canada. I've visited Ontario (four times) and Quebec (once).
I don't always agree with modernrebel, but he is spot on. Lots of English-Canadians hate the US. Hell, it's almost a subject in school. It's not even close to comparing it to regional rivalries in the US. On 9/11 I knew more than a few people who were happy that the Americans finally got what they deserved. An (English) group at my school in Montreal actually held a small celebration with wine and cake, I kid you not. AFAIK only a few people went, but you get the idea. If the US was down on it's knees there would plenty of Canadians who would want to go for the coup de grace. I'm not one of them. It's definitely true that the Quebecois are generally a bit more favourable towards Americans. BTW I am an Anglo-Quebecer, I know both sides of this pretty well.

these articles is pretty much spot on:

Canada: A nation of bigots

One day, Brian made a mistake at work, not a big mistake but a mistake. An onlooking colleague turned to another colleague and remarked that Brian was a "typical dumb-ass American." Another colleague asked him, "Is that the way you do it where you come from?"

It was pretty clear from the beginning that this country wasn't eager to welcome him. "My first night in Canada, I was asked to back my vehicle into the driveway so the neighbours did not see the American licence plate. I'm serious!"

Sounds typical to me. Keep in mind these are usually the same people who would usually never dare say the words "dumb ass Indian" or dumb ass Chinese".
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