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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Between a sick horse and getting ready for Christmas, I don't have the time to engage in the debate I would like but I would like to know how exactly does that make the Francophones different from anyone other non-Anglo, non-Francophone in Canada? What I heard, growing up, boiled down to just that. Multi-culturalism, which is so often derided on this forum, provided for many other cultures to feel confident within their own skin where they used to not feel that way. And since Canadians encompass a variety of ethnicities, what does it mean to "feel like an immigrant in your own country?"

Or is that the point - that Francophones and Anglophones want to be more special than everyone else? Because I don't see how that is going to work in a country of many ethnicities. At which point in time does a group have a legitimate claim to something?

Everyone makes decisions based on where to move or whether to move on a variety of factors and I have no issue with Quebeckers not wanting to move out of Quebec. Just saying. But who I am doesn't change if I switch languages.
Have you ever noticed what Canada's official languages are? Do you know why that is?
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,691 posts, read 6,534,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
That's exactly the point - despite being born in Germany, speaking German, and having German citizenship, German Turks are commonly viewed as something other than German. It's an excellent example of how the idea of an ethnos, or nation, is something that a government often can not control. It is a similar situation in many European countries where well-assimilated immigrants are frequently not accepted by members of the nation as being 'real' Germans, or Frenchmen, or Englishmen. Similarly we have a situation in Canada where despite massive government effort to create one Canadian nation, the Quebecois and English Canadians remain in practice two seperate peoples.

Regarding your second point, look at the effort Canadians put into distinguishing themselves from Americans. Mexicans do not have to distinguish themselves from Americans and the British do not have to distinguish themselves from Americans. The Quebecois do not have to distinguish themselves from Americans either. Only English Canadians have this need to constantly try not to be American, what Migratory Chicken calls an 'obsession' with Americans. Some Canadian historians and sociologists put it bluntly: they do this because English Canadians are Americans. Not in the sense of being citizens of the United States, but by virtue of being part of the English-speaking North American 'nation'. Regardless of the flag being flown or the lines in a map, many intellectuals argue that English Canadians and US Americans are a group with shared language, history, culture, experiences, food, music, and so on. Canadian academics aside, I personally find most English Canadians less foreign than the inhabitants of Mississippi who I share a federal government and citizenship with.

It begs the question: why is the supposedly "foreign" inhabitant of Ontario less foreign in culture to a person from Pennsylvania than a person from Mississippi, a state in his own country? We also have to ask: Why does an Anglo in the Westmount neighborhood in Montreal has more in common with a "foreign" American in San Fransisco than his fellow Canadian citizen in Gaspé?
My bad then. I thought you said that people from Germany feel German no matter what.

Actually, wrt your second point, I think that people often find what they are looking for. Each person has their own experience of course, but I have not found Canadians trying to distinguish themselves from Americans at all - the only time I see it come up is when other people assume they are interchangable. For some people, it's an obsession.

I don't think that your example of Mexicans and Quebecois holds. Assuming both spoke standard English, without an accent, in a blind taste test with other Canadians and Americans, I doubt either would be picked out as Mexican or Quebecois. Relying on accents is unreliable though.

I don't disagree at all with Americans and Canadians being part of an English-speaking North American "nation." Americans also feel an affinity for Great Britain on the basis of language and a shared history.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,691 posts, read 6,534,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Have you ever noticed what Canada's official languages are? Do you know why that is?
Yes I do. And immigrants pick one or the other, or sometimes, both. But they don't have to pick either culture.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post

I don't think that your example of Mexicans and Quebecois holds. Assuming both spoke standard English, without an accent, in a blind taste test with other Canadians and Americans, I doubt either would be picked out as Mexican or Quebecois. Relying on accents is unreliable though.

.
If I understand correctly, it seems like you are talking about what people look like. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

There aren't that many people in France who look like what many people would think a stereotypical French person would like. Same goes for German in Germany.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Yes I do. And immigrants pick one or the other, or sometimes, both. But they don't have to pick either culture.
I suppose. But the official status of English and French gives wings to the cultures that go along with them. A German-Canadian kid who goes to public school in Canada is likely to read Shakespeare, not Thomas Mann. Regardless of the ethnic makeup of his or her local community.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If I understand correctly, it seems like you are talking about what people look like. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

There aren't that many people in France who look like what many people would think a stereotypical French person would like. Same goes for German in Germany.
I was speaking of language and the idea that Canadians need to defend themselves against being mistaken for Americans and Mexicans and Quebekers do not. We make assumptions on a lot of things and the more someone sounds or looks like us, the more we make the mistake of thinking they are like us. So looks do matter. Because Canadians and Americans are a mixture of cultures and "look" the same, I think some people make the mistake of thinking that there isn't a different identity under the skin.

So it seems to me that that is the gist of the argument that English Canadians need to defend themselves against - that looks aren't everything.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,691 posts, read 6,534,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I suppose. But the official status of English and French gives wings to the cultures that go along with them. A German-Canadian kid who goes to public school in Canada is likely to read Shakespeare, not Thomas Mann. Regardless of the ethnic makeup of his or her local community.
True. But that is where in my culture, private schools came in and I would say that in my culture it would be as normal to read Thomas Mann as Shakespeare. Maybe more normal. I am not saying that it doesn't take some effort to retain one's culture and that, imo, lies with the parents.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:43 AM
 
18,265 posts, read 10,366,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Thanks for the call out but it sounds like much of this is for Migratory Chicken, not me.

In any event, the assimilation issue is a real one. The Quebec City High School teaching in English has existed since at least the 1940s, and K to 12 English education in Quebec City has existed for longer than that.

From what I know of the battle for francophone schools in Anglo-Canada, the first francophone schools in Guelph likely opened in the late 80s. It might even have been in the 90s.

On cable TV in Quebec City close to half the channels available are in English.

It's not the same type of immersion at all. Trust me. I've been there as a francophone in anglophone cities where there were almost no French speakers.

But yeah, no one will burn crosses on your lawn. (Though they might egg or soap your car windows at Halloween...)

It's not really about outright hostility. It's about feeling like an immigrant in your own country.
I, of course, will accede to your experience in duality.

I take issue with only that aspect that serves to describe one being much more usurious than the other, as surely anyone moving from one locale to another would judge being made to feel unwelcome solely due to heritage, rather than simply a lack of available official services, being far more egregious.

You have probably not been confronted with moving into a Quebec, predominantly separatist, enclave from anywhere else in Canada. I can assure you, that would be far more uncomfortable than coping with the lack of services en-francais. You would be very hard pressed to find any location in the ROC that would welcome you with open hostility due solely to you being from anywhere in Quebec.

I'm not wrong and I believe you know it.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Montreal > Quebec > Canada
476 posts, read 426,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
. You would be very hard pressed to find any location in the ROC that would welcome you with open hostility due solely to you being from anywhere in Quebec.

I'm not wrong and I believe you know it.
You know, it isn't 1763 anymore. An Anglo moving to Saguenay might be met with indifference (just like a Québécois who would move to Red Deer...), but certainly not with hostility.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,332,488 times
Reputation: 8602
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
True. But that is where in my culture, private schools came in and I would say that in my culture it would be as normal to read Thomas Mann as Shakespeare. Maybe more normal. I am not saying that it doesn't take some effort to retain one's culture and that, imo, lies with the parents.
That's a micro-phenomenon you are describing right there. There are a few communities like this but most are not. The vast majority are not.
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