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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 116 65.91%
No 60 34.09%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-19-2019, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,810 posts, read 11,288,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I didn't say that. What I said was that Quebec separatism is an effort to relitigate the Seven Years War. And Canada's been trying to bribe them, without notable success, into staying as willing partners.
I don't see it the way you do in terms of 'bribes' - As a matter of fact, last I looked 60 percent of Quebec supports unity 40 percent separation. If we had not made any attempt to prevent separation in the past, a singular moment in time would have dictated the breakup of a country. It is likely and probable, given the fact that immigration is still QC's largest contributor of population growth, that separatist movements of the past will not regain the same level of steam they had in the past. 95 may have been the last good chance the Separatists had for what likely will be a looong time.

So my comments remain, if people want to have a discussion of equalization payment or 'bribes' with evidence to support that claim, have at it. I think there are absolutely national contributions QC makes to our nation and thus at least many are absolutely willing partners.

Tell Mr Mailloux he is not a willing partner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Mailloux
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:10 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,316 posts, read 6,443,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't see it the way you do in terms of 'bribes' - As a matter of fact, last I looked 60 percent of Quebec supports unity 40 percent separation.
A 49.6% oui vote in 1995 speaks volumes, as did the sickening wave of anti-Semitism that went with it. As for Mailloux he appears to be a national treasure. But what about the conscription riots accompanying, I believe, both world wars? Though in the nature of full disclosure I will admit that my city, New York City, had anti-draft riots with the U.S. Civil War.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,810 posts, read 11,288,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
A 49.6% oui vote in 1995 speaks volumes, as did the sickening wave of anti-Semitism that went with it. As for Mailloux he appears to be a national treasure. But what about the conscription riots accompanying, I believe, both world wars? Though in the nature of full disclosure I will admit that my city, New York City, had anti-draft riots with the U.S. Civil War.
Yes a 49.6 percent vote vs a pretty consistent 60 percent vote since then, speaks a lot of volumes. That being said, it is what it is and I stick by my comments - that was probably the very best chance the yes side had in a long time and it will be a very long time if ever, that conditions will be that ripe for them.. Are you banking on a separatist revival of similar strength anytime soon?

The actions of million of Quebecers speak for themselves in terms of contributions to this country. I'm not always a fan of Quebec's laws, nor its values but at the same time, I'm not going to demonize different. I'll call out where I don't agree, as I have but at the same time, Quebec is an integral part of this country. Has been for a long time, warts and fleur-de-lis and all..
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,216 posts, read 27,659,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
A 49.6% oui vote in 1995 speaks volumes, as did the sickening wave of anti-Semitism that went with it. As for Mailloux he appears to be a national treasure. But what about the conscription riots accompanying, I believe, both world wars? Though in the nature of full disclosure I will admit that my city, New York City, had anti-draft riots with the U.S. Civil War.
There was no specific anti-Semitic angle to the 1995 referendum. At all.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,216 posts, read 27,659,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I didn't say that. What I said was that Quebec separatism is an effort to relitigate the Seven Years War. And Canada's been trying to bribe them, without notable success, into staying as willing partners.
For its supporters Quebec separstism is not at all about the 7 Years War. It is about the 1867 Confederation principles no longer working, not being respected and most importantly being unfixable or unreformable.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Montreal
441 posts, read 283,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
A 49.6% oui vote in 1995 speaks volumes, as did the sickening wave of anti-Semitism that went with it. As for Mailloux he appears to be a national treasure. But what about the conscription riots accompanying, I believe, both world wars? Though in the nature of full disclosure I will admit that my city, New York City, had anti-draft riots with the U.S. Civil War.
JBG I'm still not sure why you bring up the U.S. Civil War.

That was nearly 200 years ago, and has no comparison to Quebec's independence movement.

There are no impending wars in Canada nor Quebec.

And if there was, I would never even consider bearing arms against my countrymen who are separatists.
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,810 posts, read 11,288,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBeauchamp View Post
And if there was, I would never even consider bearing arms against my countrymen who are separatists.
You know, as much as everyone likes to trumpet how much different and unique they are from other assembled human beings, one thing I think is a sort of Pan-national sentiment is what you just wrote here. In this sense, neither QC nor the R.O.C is anything like what we were 250 years ago.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:09 AM
 
2,813 posts, read 1,054,951 times
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To the above poster, Quebec is in essence the defining feature of Canada, particularly to an international audience. It's what really sets Canada apart from the US to a good number of foreigners as it gives Canada a different flair.
Without it, most of the conversations revolve around the different approaches to foreign policy, firearms and healthcare with the occasional stereotypes thrown in for good measure.
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Old 08-22-2019, 05:06 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,810 posts, read 11,288,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
To the above poster, Quebec is in essence the defining feature of Canada, particularly to an international audience. It's what really sets Canada apart from the US to a good number of foreigners as it gives Canada a different flair.
Without it, most of the conversations revolve around the different approaches to foreign policy, firearms and healthcare with the occasional stereotypes thrown in for good measure.
I'm not sure why you are singling my post out with this comment. All I said to PB is that based on what he wrote, that he would never take arms up against his fellow countrymen, I think that is a sentiment that would be shared by Canadians as a whole, and that is something very much shared across the country. That even in a situation where QC would separate, it would be sorted out diplomatically and not through arms. To that comment you responded with this.

I absolutely disagree with any notion that QC is the essence or defining feature of Canada though. It is a defining feature and an essence of Canada. I think making the statement you did, essentially evades understanding of our nation, our history and our relationship with the rest of the world and the people in it. I also think there is more of a truth to what you said, if you are speaking of cultural and culinary exports that Canada is known for. Naturally stuff out of QC wouldn't be as easily lost or simply regarded as assimilated by the U.S cultural juggernaut. That however, does not mean that Canadians aren't aware or proud of all its accomplishments that extend to everything, not just cultural, but our values, our contributions to an exceptional legal system, our contributions to Math, Science, technology, promotion of democracy, our way of life and our multiculturalism/diversity. These are absolutely defining features of this nation, and it is tone deaf to exclude the R.O.C in any discussion about what defines Canada. I think you comment was myopic and simplistic.

That being said, that is really not the topic of discussion here. What you are getting into is, what defines Canada outside of QC. I'm sure that there are other threads that discuss this topic ad-nauseum. Feel free to open up another thread on the topic since you have really out of the blue, brought it up and it has no bearing on my response to PB and is an unrelated topic to what was being discussed. Most importantly, my comment was one of unity - yours was not.

Last edited by fusion2; 08-22-2019 at 05:59 AM..
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
22,216 posts, read 27,659,708 times
Reputation: 8699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
To the above poster, Quebec is in essence the defining feature of Canada, particularly to an international audience. It's what really sets Canada apart from the US to a good number of foreigners as it gives Canada a different flair.
Without it, most of the conversations revolve around the different approaches to foreign policy, firearms and healthcare with the occasional stereotypes thrown in for good measure.
Even though I live in Quebec and defend its uniqueness a lot, I only partly agree with this and believe fusion makes some good points.


What I would say is that for people abroad who know a bit about a Canada (or *think* they know a bit about Canada), yes Quebec does stand out as a very obvious defining characteristic. If they push into Canada a bit more, their view that Quebec really is what makes Canada different from the U.S. generally tends to get strengthened.


That said, probably for most people globally Canada has this vague "French" aspect it to it that may or may not be associated with the words "Quebec" and "Montreal". Though most certainly "French" and "Canada" are inseparable from the globally famous Canadian icons "Celine Dion" and "Cirque du Soleil".


But the broader French aspect of Canada for people is not usually accurately grasped, which is why people show up in Toronto and Vancouver expecting tons of French (though yes French is more visible in those two cities than it is in Seattle, Buffalo or Chicago). A lot of people expect it to be more evenly spread out across the country, as opposed to being fairly concentrated in one region.


Also, a lot of iconic Canadian stuff is not necessarily associated with Quebec (even if many of these things are present and even iconic to Quebec too): polar bears, vast wilderness, cold snowy winters, hockey, mountains, etc.


My guess is that poutine (making a name for itself worldwide) is more associated with "Canada" globally than it is with "Quebec", though perhaps people do pick up that the name sounds French in origin. But if you're in Kuala Lumpur there is a good chance the Canadian owner of the poutine place is an anglo from Toronto or Winnipeg. Hardly something that will impress upon Indonesians that Canada is "French" or "all about Quebec".


Just being realistic here. I actually do feel personally that fundamentally Quebec is a huge part of what distinguishes Canada from the U.S.
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