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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-10-2014, 03:00 PM
 
1,317 posts, read 2,035,533 times
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One word: neverendum.

Last edited by maclock; 12-10-2014 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:32 PM
 
261 posts, read 203,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
For example, tonight I was on the Impact soccer club Facebook page and contrary to the Montreal Canadiens page where the banter is very bilingual in French and English, the Impact page is very predominantly in French with people of all origins (judging from their names) exchanging in French about soccer. I think you can see where I am going: the soccer crowd is much more a new Montreal crowd and made up of more recent immigrants. The Canadiens hockey crowd still has lots of francophones in it of course but it also has way more immigrants (or their descendants) who came to Montreal when English had a more dominant place in the city.
Yes, although it's probably the case that the soccer crowd in Montreal will include immigrants from francophone countries in North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa, as well as Latin Americans who are likely to gravitate toward French rather than English. Of course, this is probably related to Quebec targeting immigrants from these countries. Maybe that's your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
For a new world society, Quebec has an extremely strong sense of place. The way it feels like ''home'' to most of its residents is visceral, and in Canada is probably only rivalled by Newfoundland.
Do you think this is so unusual? Canadians too consider Canada to be their home, viscerally so, it's just that they put the "boundary" somewhere else, in the sense that might still feel at home elsewhere in Canada. For Quebecers this is different for reasons that should be obvious by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't really disagree that much. I wasn't saying that I expect "an offer that Quebec can't refuse" to come down the pike, but you have to admit that if we have a Referendum III, all bets are off and the PQ will rub the Non side's nose in all of that like you wouldn't believe.
I don't know; the PQ doesn't really want to hold a referendum anyway since they view it (possibly with reason) as lost from the start. But you're talking about "Meech Plus", when even something remotely similar to Meech would be unacceptable to Canada. Nobody wants to have a discussion about what Canada should be, and how powers should be shared. It's only in Quebec that there might be an interest, but obviously federalists won't bring the subject up since they have no perspective of success.

When Couillard talked about signing the constitution, I wondered if he meant just do it right now, so that it'd no longer be an issue and there would still be three and a half years to the next election for Quebecers to forget what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc View Post
Just as an aside, while you were all clutching your pearls in horror, if the FLQ wasn't a terrorist organization that committed bombings and assassination in the name of Quebec Independence, what exactly makes a terrorist?
What do the handful of guys who were in the FLQ, a few tens at most, count for among the maybe 25% of Quebecers who are staunch sovereigntists, and the maybe 60% who might vote Yes depending on the circumstances?
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,390,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

What do the handful of guys who were in the FLQ, a few tens at most, count for among the maybe 25% of Quebecers who are staunch sovereigntists, and the maybe 60% who might vote Yes depending on the circumstances?
It was also 44 years ago.

The last person to perpetrate what could be called an act of terrorism on this issue in Quebec was an anglo by the name of Richard Bain.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,390,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

I don't know; the PQ doesn't really want to hold a referendum anyway since they view it (possibly with reason) as lost from the start. But you're talking about "Meech Plus", when even something remotely similar to Meech would be unacceptable to Canada. Nobody wants to have a discussion about what Canada should be, and how powers should be shared. It's only in Quebec that there might be an interest, but obviously federalists won't bring the subject up since they have no perspective of success.
Once again, I am not saying I think it will happen. But it is a possible approach to resolving the issue once and for all.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,390,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

When Couillard talked about signing the constitution, I wondered if he meant just do it right now, so that it'd no longer be an issue and there would still be three and a half years to the next election for Quebecers to forget what he did.
I don't think he could do that politically (regardless of what he thinks personally) without coming back with at least some concessions in exchange.

He might do it if he was thinking of retiring right after but then again the potential damage to his party would also be great. Good Liberal soldiers don't do that.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,960 posts, read 27,390,495 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migratory Chicken View Post

Do you think this is so unusual? Canadians too consider Canada to be their home, viscerally so, it's just that they put the "boundary" somewhere else, in the sense that might still feel at home elsewhere in Canada. For Quebecers this is different for reasons that should be obvious by now.
I am not minimizing the attachment of Anglo-Canadians to their ''home'' (however they wish to define it) but it is still different in my view.

Québécois people tend to have a ''no one else but here'' mentality that you don't really find so strongly felt in Canada. Except maybe for Newfoundland as I said.

Mainland Anglo-Canadians tend to be much more mobile, both within Canada (which they tend to see as their home from coast to coast it is true) but also within the Canada-USA sphere as well (in spite of the impression that is often given that the border is really a huge deal psychologically).
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:42 PM
 
Location: europe
77 posts, read 77,299 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Its fine to say you are convinced, but it would make for a much stronger argument for you to list the pro's and con's and also the impact of such a move.. For some Quebecers it would no doubt be better but the essential question of is it better for all - well I think that is part of the reason it has not occured.

Aside from that, All Canadians would do well to put on the empathy shoes!
Read over the thread. 23 pages and only talk. No one has offered any solution at all. That is because the solution is so obvious but it is not the solution you hope for. The only solution is independence. Look over the thread once again and tell, is that not the only solution? You keep searching hard for anything (and I mean anything) to be the other answer. You keep beating a dead horse. But 2 + 2= 4. You want 2 + 2 to equal anything other than 4. But 4 is the only answer, and anyone who steps back and thinks logically instead of being controlled by emotion can see this clearly as day.

This is how it is:

Nothing but independence will appease Quebec. Thats all. You know now from experience that more money doesnt matter. More money to Quebec means a poorer Canada and still unhappy Quebec. More government support of French language? We know that it has been very ineffective and still Quebec will be unhappy. As long as the current scenario endures, Quebec will fail to establish a better economy and canada will be strapped down by quebec. Right now Quebec is a useless appendage attached to Canada. Anyone who is willing to put aside emotions can see that. So what is the solution? Independence is the only one. It is better for Quebec and Canada. Everyone wins. Of course some will be unhappy, but the overall result is the best possible option. It is time to put aside emotions clouding judgement and time to be pragmatic. Independence is the solution that is so obvious and has been staring you in the face for so long. It is time to face the reality and move forward. Right now are in an Autria-Hungary situation. You are pacing back and forth desperately searching for the answer to be something else. But this is the reality.

Youve tried more money, more political power, more government protection of French, more everything. What else can you offer? Nothing other than independence. Duh. That is what they wanted since many decades ago. Duh!

So what is the solution other than independence?
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,156,879 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtmann View Post
Read over the thread. 23 pages and only talk. No one has offered any solution at all. That is because the solution is so obvious but it is not the solution you hope for. The only solution is independence. Look over the thread once again and tell, is that not the only solution? You keep searching hard for anything (and I mean anything) to be the other answer. You keep beating a dead horse. But 2 + 2= 4. You want 2 + 2 to equal anything other than 4. But 4 is the only answer, and anyone who steps back and thinks logically instead of being controlled by emotion can see this clearly as day.

This is how it is:

Nothing but independence will appease Quebec. Thats all. You know now from experience that more money doesnt matter. More money to Quebec means a poorer Canada and still unhappy Quebec. More government support of French language? We know that it has been very ineffective and still Quebec will be unhappy. As long as the current scenario endures, Quebec will fail to establish a better economy and canada will be strapped down by quebec. Right now Quebec is a useless appendage attached to Canada. Anyone who is willing to put aside emotions can see that. So what is the solution? Independence is the only one. It is better for Quebec and Canada. Everyone wins. Of course some will be unhappy, but the overall result is the best possible option. It is time to put aside emotions clouding judgement and time to be pragmatic. Independence is the solution that is so obvious and has been staring you in the face for so long. It is time to face the reality and move forward. Right now are in an Autria-Hungary situation. You are pacing back and forth desperately searching for the answer to be something else. But this is the reality.

Youve tried more money, more political power, more government protection of French, more everything. What else can you offer? Nothing other than independence. Duh. That is what they wanted since many decades ago. Duh!

So what is the solution other than independence?
Well I think if it were a simple and obvious matter for Quebec than the decision would have been made a long time ago to just drop the gauntlet.. A country that is as diverse as Canada yet that is as interconnected as Canada is like any relationship - its a difficult affair and isn't easy but its far from being all bad.. Why doesn't a couple who has a problem in their marriage or even strings of problems throughout the time of it, why don't they just call it quits.. The answer lies not just in what some of us would see as logical, but also transcends to something that is more subjective and engages multiple spheres of emotions. If you read through all the pages, you'd also see some of the benefits that the union brings to Quebec and also to the R.O.C..

Remember - at last count only 40 percent of Quebecers want secession and 60 do not so i'm not sure how that is a painfully obvious case for secession when the majority of the province do not want to go down that path either emotionally,logically, strategically, practically, tactically etc..

As for 23 pages on CD - thats all this is lol - 23 pages on CD......

As for your question about what is the solution for Quebec - what is the solution for any large diverse country... you either work things out or you don't.. I think if the time had come where Quebecers by and large reached the point that things don't work -well it is than that you'd have your solid majority wanting to go down another path.

What is the solution for Scotland and Catalonia btw? Any insights into those matters? Are are they still a part of Uk and Spain?

Actually if you want to find a state with a real strong desire for change you should look to Catalonia...
81% Of Catalans Vote To Secede From Spain In Symbolic Referendum - Business Insider

Last edited by fusion2; 12-11-2014 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,699 posts, read 8,501,190 times
Reputation: 4898
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtmann View Post
Read over the thread. 23 pages and only talk. No one has offered any solution at all. That is because the solution is so obvious but it is not the solution you hope for. The only solution is independence. Look over the thread once again and tell, is that not the only solution? You keep searching hard for anything (and I mean anything) to be the other answer. You keep beating a dead horse. But 2 + 2= 4. You want 2 + 2 to equal anything other than 4. But 4 is the only answer, and anyone who steps back and thinks logically instead of being controlled by emotion can see this clearly as day.

This is how it is:

Nothing but independence will appease Quebec. Thats all. You know now from experience that more money doesnt matter. More money to Quebec means a poorer Canada and still unhappy Quebec. More government support of French language? We know that it has been very ineffective and still Quebec will be unhappy. As long as the current scenario endures, Quebec will fail to establish a better economy and canada will be strapped down by quebec. Right now Quebec is a useless appendage attached to Canada. Anyone who is willing to put aside emotions can see that. So what is the solution? Independence is the only one. It is better for Quebec and Canada. Everyone wins. Of course some will be unhappy, but the overall result is the best possible option. It is time to put aside emotions clouding judgement and time to be pragmatic. Independence is the solution that is so obvious and has been staring you in the face for so long. It is time to face the reality and move forward. Right now are in an Autria-Hungary situation. You are pacing back and forth desperately searching for the answer to be something else. But this is the reality.

Youve tried more money, more political power, more government protection of French, more everything. What else can you offer? Nothing other than independence. Duh. That is what they wanted since many decades ago. Duh!

So what is the solution other than independence?
Political independence isn't something that the people in the rest of Canada can give to Quebec like some kind of gift. The only people who get to decide if Quebec is going to leave confederation are the people of Quebec, and they are not of one mind on this issue despite how you are trying to suggest that "Quebec" wants independence. It is still quite controversial, and until such time as they decide in a referendum to do so it is the responsibility of Canadians to try and build a functional federation.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, QC, Canada
3,402 posts, read 4,452,621 times
Reputation: 4409
This thread scares me. I thought relations were improving and seperatism fading bit by bit.

This would be a huge loss for the country, and as unpopular an opinion this will come off, if Quebec goes, Canada officially becomes the world's most culturally boring country immediately.

The border will also look awkward as eff.
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