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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 147 65.04%
No 79 34.96%
Voters: 226. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-16-2014, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 133,346 times
Reputation: 129

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If you had an anglophone Canadian province with 8 million people, no separatist movement and the same economic conditions and fiscal capacity as Quebec, it would get the same amount of money from the federal government.
As far as federal transfers, that sounds right to me..however speaking on the overall cost of the independance movement situation in qc, then we know that a lot of energy and I believe money too...I can't say how much, but in my opinion it's been quite costly yet.

An easy one is the 'scandale des commandites', illegal money was thrown to influence the 95 referendum, then the Gomery commision cost a great deal again to shed the light. Lawyers, investigator, political debates related, public media...$$$

Years of debates, legal contests and government working toward or against separation interests cost a lot to quebecers and also to canadians.

A less obvious one, the canadian bilinguism law from PE Trudeau altough I could be argued, can be thought as a weapon to shut down the separatist movement, Believing in that theory add a whole LOT of money to the bunch... By the way many canadians were not agreeing with this decision because of the astronomical amount of money that ended up representing at the time. Even now, as an example, in 2012 the Fraser institute evaluated the maintenance of bilingual public services (fr) to 2.4 billions dollars annually. I'm not against bilinguism, but the RUSH to put in place thoses heavy structures was likely driven by a wish to shutdown the language argument from the independance clan
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Old 12-17-2014, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
As far as federal transfers, that sounds right to me..however speaking on the overall cost of the independance movement situation in qc, then we know that a lot of energy and I believe money too...I can't say how much, but in my opinion it's been quite costly yet.

An easy one is the 'scandale des commandites', illegal money was thrown to influence the 95 referendum, then the Gomery commision cost a great deal again to shed the light. Lawyers, investigator, political debates related, public media...$$$

Years of debates, legal contests and government working toward or against separation interests cost a lot to quebecers and also to canadians.

A less obvious one, the canadian bilinguism law from PE Trudeau altough I could be argued, can be thought as a weapon to shut down the separatist movement, Believing in that theory add a whole LOT of money to the bunch... By the way many canadians were not agreeing with this decision because of the astronomical amount of money that ended up representing at the time. Even now, as an example, in 2012 the Fraser institute evaluated the maintenance of bilingual public services (fr) to 2.4 billions dollars annually. I'm not against bilinguism, but the RUSH to put in place thoses heavy structures was likely driven by a wish to shutdown the language argument from the independance clan
I would strongly caution against viewing official federal bilingualism as being viewed as spending "for Quebec" or even "anti-separatism" money.

All of that spending has to be deconstructed.

For starters, the reality is that Canada has a largish segment of the country that has functioned primarily in French for 400 years or more. For the federal government to serve those people most effectively it's most effective to do it in French. Especially since those people are taxpayers.

In the case of the province Quebec in particular, what is a costly "nice to have" is wall to wall federal services in English, not federal services in French which would be the logical bare minimum given the reality of the province. So in this case, that's not catering to the separatist francophone Québécois in order to convince them to stay in Canada. It's propping up English in Quebec.

As for the language skills required by the federal administration, a lot of money could be saved if the federal government only hired people who are already bilingual for bilingual positions. (At the moment, thousands of unilingual people are sent off for costly language training to become bilingual.) Of course, we all know that making bilingualism an up-front requirement would lead to a predominantly francophone federal public service. And we don't want that, now do we? And so a huge amount of Canada's bilingualism budget goes to pay for language training for unilingual anglophones so they can "fairly" (sic) compete for federal positions with francophone Canadian citizens who are already bilingual.
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
I would like to see a way to make it work with the Quebeckers but I can understand why they feel the way they do. The current sustainability of French may be temporary and is entirely reliant on the Canadian federal government and a status quo. It will be interesting if French Quebec can survive the current wave of mass immigration as a cultural force in Canada. Obviously the only way to truly secure the future of French and Quebec identity is through seperatism but at least the bleeding has been stopped for now. In 1700 French was 100% of the population, in 1812 80%, in 1840 60%, in 1867 about less than 40%, in 1920 less than 30%, and today is at 23%.
These figures (for all of Canada) only tell part of the story of French in Canada.

Within Quebec itself the situation with French is quite stable.

About 85% of the population of Quebec is made up of native French speakers and of the total population of Quebec 95% or more can speak French. Most immigrants to Quebec as well as English Canadians living in Quebec can also speak French now.

The number of French speakers (native first language or non-native second language) continues to increase in Quebec.
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,241 posts, read 9,228,741 times
Reputation: 9833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The PQ has said that any francophones outside Quebec would be welcomed if they wanted to move to an independent Quebec. I think it's part of their program. Not sure about people who are of French Canadian origin but who don't speak French. I don't think they've mentioned anything about that, but it could just be they haven't really thought about it, or that they think that few would be interested.

The PQ have also said that they would allow Quebec citizens to have dual citizenship with Canada.
By 'francophone' would that mean those of French origin or all those who have French as one of their languages?

And no one had addressed what benefit is in this for the rest of Canada.

I am enjoying Guytar's posts, btw.
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,241 posts, read 9,228,741 times
Reputation: 9833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I would strongly caution against viewing official federal bilingualism as being viewed as spending "for Quebec" or even "anti-separatism" money.

All of that spending has to be deconstructed.

For starters, the reality is that Canada has a largish segment of the country that has functioned primarily in French for 400 years or more. For the federal government to serve those people most effectively it's most effective to do it in French. Especially since those people are taxpayers.

In the case of the province Quebec in particular, what is a costly "nice to have" is wall to wall federal services in English, not federal services in French which would be the logical bare minimum given the reality of the province. So in this case, that's not catering to the separatist francophone Québécois in order to convince them to stay in Canada. It's propping up English in Quebec.

As for the language skills required by the federal administration, a lot of money could be saved if the federal government only hired people who are already bilingual for bilingual positions. (At the moment, thousands of unilingual people are sent off for costly language training to become bilingual.) Of course, we all know that making bilingualism an up-front requirement would lead to a predominantly francophone federal public service. And we don't want that, now do we? And so a huge amount of Canada's bilingualism budget goes to pay for language training for unilingual anglophones so they can "fairly" (sic) compete for federal positions with francophone Canadian citizens who are already bilingual.
As far as languages go, I recall people here murmuring about how now in order to get anywhere they would have to learn French. So murmuring notwithstanding, people wanted their children to learn French in school. Are there any statistics available for anglophones who learned French after Trudeau versus before? Or is the quality of French not up to the standards whereby most people learning it as a second language are able to make themselves understood?
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
By 'francophone' would that mean those of French origin or all those who have French as one of their languages?

.
They always use the word "francophones", so this would be related to language, not ethnic origins.
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Canada
428 posts, read 447,121 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These figures (for all of Canada) only tell part of the story of French in Canada.

Within Quebec itself the situation with French is quite stable.

About 85% of the population of Quebec is made up of native French speakers and of the total population of Quebec 95% or more can speak French. Most immigrants to Quebec as well as English Canadians living in Quebec can also speak French now.

The number of French speakers (native first language or non-native second language) continues to increase in Quebec.
Ya, but how long will that last? Plus French has only increased by 1% or something negligible like that in Quebec. It isnt much to call that stable. It doesnt seem like much compared to all the effort and money being put into it. And even with a 1% increase (or some other small number) the seperatist movement is as strong as ever, dominating Quebec politics and the provincial bank account. I dont really trust those statistics showing an increase in French anyways. Montreal looks like it did 30 years ago but with more French signs being enforced. The francophone population still looks like the artificial junior partner rather than the master of their own city. The government has faced scrutiny for stretching numbers to make the language policies look more successful than they really are. If numbers of French speakers drop by even 1% then you know what that means for the popularity of the seperatists. That isnt a stable political situation, that is precarious. With the scrutiny for inflating numbers of francophones, it is no wonder because when you hear some of the new 'francophones' they are hardly deserving of the name. If they spoke English the way they speak French I would never call them 'anglophones'. What I mean is that they are being very generous with who they count as a francophone nowadays. Whatever it is I wouldnt call the situation stable. I prefer to say the bleeding has stopped. Only independence can make a stable situation. Right now it is a difficult balancing act. Quebec isnt an autonomous province as some want to believe. It is one out of ten and cant change its own constitution without the consent of 9 others. So Quebec's situation is not stable but precarious. The biggest question is how long can Quebec pull this off. Because in 30, 50 or 100 years things wont be the same. I could not care less about French in Canada, but it is plain to see Quebec has two simple but difficult options:

1)independence
2)assimilation

I like the French language to some degree but as a pragmatist Quebec needs to be assimilated or leave for Canada to move forward. Right now Quebec has chosen the latter (assimilation), regardless of the fairy tales of a resurgent French Quebec within Canada that some want to believe. But it has chosen a slow death instead of a quick decisive one.

Last edited by modernrebel; 12-17-2014 at 10:00 AM..
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Canada
428 posts, read 447,121 times
Reputation: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
And no one had addressed what benefit is in this for the rest of Canada.
Oh you know, political instability, financial burdens, ethnic animosity, and the right to say that Canada is bilingual...
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
As far as languages go, I recall people here murmuring about how now in order to get anywhere they would have to learn French. So murmuring notwithstanding, people wanted their children to learn French in school. Are there any statistics available for anglophones who learned French after Trudeau versus before? Or is the quality of French not up to the standards whereby most people learning it as a second language are able to make themselves understood?
The number of non-francophones in Canada who can speak French today is much much larger than it would have been pre-Trudeau. It rose steadily during the 70s, 80s and 90s, but has kind of plateaued in recent years for some reason.
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,776 posts, read 37,717,092 times
Reputation: 11550
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernrebel View Post
Ya, but how long will that last? Plus French has only increased by 1% or something negligible like that in Quebec. It isnt much to call that stable. It doesnt seem like much compared to all the effort and money being put into it. And even with a 1% increase (or some other small number) the seperatist movement is as strong as ever, dominating Quebec politics and the provincial bank account. I dont really trust those statistics showing an increase in French anyways. Montreal looks like it did 30 years ago but with more French signs being enforced. The francophone population still looks like the artificial junior partner rather than the master of their own city. The government has faced scrutiny for stretching numbers to make the language policies look more successful than they really are. If numbers of French speakers drop by even 1% then you know what that means for the popularity of the seperatists. That isnt a stable political situation, that is precarious. With the scrutiny for inflating numbers of francophones, it is no wonder because when you hear some of the new 'francophones' they are hardly deserving of the name. If they spoke English the way they speak French I would never call them 'anglophones'. What I mean is that they are being very generous with who they count as a francophone nowadays. Whatever it is I wouldnt call the situation stable. I prefer to say the bleeding has stopped. Only independence can make a stable situation. Right now it is a difficult balancing act. Quebec isnt an autonomous province as some want to believe. It is one out of ten and cant change its own constitution without the consent of 9 others. So Quebec's situation is not stable but precarious. The biggest question is how long can Quebec pull this off. Because in 30, 50 or 100 years things wont be the same. I could not care less about French in Canada, but it is plain to see Quebec has two simple but difficult options:

1)independence
2)assimilation

I like the French language to some degree but as a pragmatist Quebec needs to be assimilated or leave for Canada to move forward. Right now Quebec has chosen the latter (assimilation), regardless of the fairy tales of a resurgent French Quebec within Canada that some want to believe. But it has chosen a slow death instead of a quick decisive one.
You should know that I am not usually one to sugar-coat things on this issue. And I do agree that it is a delicate balance. The gains made by French are fragile but they are nonetheless real. There is no assimilation of native French speakers to English in Quebec at the moment and the number of "everyday French speakers" is higher than the number of French Canadians in the province.

I should also mention that I have kids in school in a fairly diverse neighbourhood of Quebec that is right on the frontline: the border with Ontario is 10 km away and we are in the same metro as Ottawa, Ontario.

I have a front-row seat with what the new and future Quebec looks and sounds like.

If you listened in to my kids and their friends you couldn't tell which ones are of French Canadian origin and which ones aren't.
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