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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2014, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,961 posts, read 27,403,107 times
Reputation: 8613

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
Now that you refer to Sugar Sammy, not sure I like the idea of french immersion now!

Note: Sugar Sammy recent publicity controversy: "I wan't a plaint from the ONLF (french language office) for christmas". In the anglo media voxpops, on the street anglophones saying I love him, is a genius and francophones saying it's just for joking, he likes to teases all communities...and on the french media some saying that this is a bad timing to make humour out of this and others saying, it's just for joking
Sugar Sammy nonetheless represents progress. In the generations before him you generally had people instead like Mordecai Richler who spoke no French at all and still felt they were qualified to be expert commentators on Quebec society.

Sugar Sammy has his own TV show in French on V and tours the province doing live shows in French.
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Old 12-19-2014, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,961 posts, read 27,403,107 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
Just to clarify, Quebec has chosen to exert its powers under Constitution s. 95 in regards to immigration. However, such powers are subject to Charter s. 6 (2) and (3).

What this means is that Quebec can select its immigrants coming from outside Canada, but it cannot prevent people coming to Quebec from other parts of Canada.

To the best of my knowledge, Quebec is the only province to exert its s. 95 powers in this way. However, this makes sense, as French-speaking people from France, Haiti, Algeria, and Vietnam (among other French-speaking places) would probably find Quebec more welcoming, language-wise, than they would find, say, Alberta or Nova Scotia to be.
To simplify the immigration question a bit...

Generally speaking, Quebec gets to pick a bit more than half of the immigrants that come to the province every year. (For these people, the feds simply do a security check.) These are what are known as "economic immigrants" - qualified people looking for a better life.

The other group of immigrants (close to half) are selected by the federal government. These are mostly "family reunion" type immigrants. (Canada actually does a lot of this.) Some of these are also refugees - also selected by Canada.
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Old 12-19-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This question gets asked a lot because I suppose many Anglo-Canadians think that Canada acts as a "buffer" against Americanization and anglicization in Quebec, but I'd say that's a huge myth.

(Anglo-)Canada is a bit of a trojan horse when it comes to English in Quebec. It brings with it an alternative model for societal integration in English with all of the accompanying culture. There is freedom of movement between Quebec and the other provinces and a decent chunk of people from other parts of Canada who move to Quebec never learn any French. English language culture and services are boosted in Quebec by private sector companies and the Canadian government.

Whereas Americans in general don't care what language is used locally in Quebec. It's a foreign place just like Mexico to them.

They often keep their trademarked names but aside from that American companies that operate in Quebec are extremely diligent in their adherence to any French language requirements under Quebec's laws. Pound for pound they are probably better at this (at least from what I observe in the retail sector) than companies owned by Canadians are non-francophones from Quebec.
This makes sense - I went on further to say the U.S would exert other 'influences' in terms of Foriegn Affairs policy so its not so much cultural or even corporate as it is just its overall size in our neck of the woods and more a geopolitical standpoint if you will.. A new Quebec government would need to come to grips with such - that is why I said in the unlikely event of separation, it would be interesting to see how Quebec views the U.S in that context a few decades afterwards... Canada has a pretty harmonious relationship with the U.S but we've had to deal with them for a long time which can taint any love affair... Certainly in the western hemisphere, I wouldn't say the majority of countries are ecstatic about U.S F.P doctrine over the last century as it applies to them and others... I certainly don't think an independant Quebec would exactly have a parallel F.P ideology but there would be an 'expectation' of such from the Elephant..

Last edited by fusion2; 12-19-2014 at 04:44 PM..
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Saint-Aimé-des-Lacs, Québec
163 posts, read 154,633 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This makes sense - I went on further to say the U.S would exert other 'influences' in terms of Foriegn Affairs policy so its not so much cultural as it is just its overall size in our neck of the woods - more geopolitical if you will.. A new Quebec government would need to come to grips with such - that is why I said in the unlikely event of separation, it would be interesting to see how Quebec views the U.S in that context a few decades afterwords... Canada has a pretty harmonious relationship with the U.S but in the western hemisphere, I wouldn't say the majority of countries are ecstatic about its F.P doctrine over the last century... I certainly don't think an independant Quebec would exactly have a parallel F.P doctrine..
Fear and more fear from you. You repeat the same message, that QC will face the end of times if we separate. No, QC does not envision an anti-US foreign policy suggest. It is envisioned as with increased economic ties and more military neutrality.In reality, the US would annex Canada in days if they desired so. You do not provide a defense against anglicization because you are the anglicizers yourselves. Americans want markets and peaceful borders not to americanize countries. The American plans for a oui victor in 1995 has been made open to the public. Canadians businesses are sometimes entangled in nationalistic aims. If it is a man from ON or the US running the business does not matter to me. Who provides more opportunities for QC? Most times the case is the Americans, not the Canadians. I have seen this ideology effective in ON. In QC not so much.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:56 PM
 
Location: europe
77 posts, read 77,331 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This question gets asked a lot because I suppose many Anglo-Canadians think that Canada acts as a "buffer" against Americanization and anglicization in Quebec, but I'd say that's a huge myth.

(Anglo-)Canada is a bit of a trojan horse when it comes to English in Quebec. It brings with it an alternative model for societal integration in English with all of the accompanying culture. There is freedom of movement between Quebec and the other provinces and a decent chunk of people from other parts of Canada who move to Quebec never learn any French. English language culture and services are boosted in Quebec by private sector companies and the Canadian government.

Whereas Americans in general don't care what language is used locally in Quebec. It's a foreign place just like Mexico to them.

They often keep their trademarked names but aside from that American companies that operate in Quebec are extremely diligent in their adherence to any French language requirements under Quebec's laws. Pound for pound they are probably better at this (at least from what I observe in the retail sector) than companies owned by Canadians are non-francophones from Quebec.
What do you mean by "Anglo Canada is a bit of a trojan horse in Quebec"?
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Saint-Aimé-des-Lacs, Québec
163 posts, read 154,633 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
It's true but it feels a little tendentious tough, the concern is around the very poor historical information given about candadian / quebec politic and all the canadian flaw flaw that is there to make sure that when you ear about independance you can say spontaneously beurk, no need to master the immigration policy to figure that out. Just have to talk 5 min. with a newly arrived immigrant to observe how politically unaware they are
So true. Immigration is also a dangerous game because of the future it shapes. There are immigrants who only want to Canada, Montreal or Toronto is irrelevant. But also there are immigrants who want to be in QC specifically. It is a battleground of immigration policies between pro-QC and pro-Canada immigrants. Canada knows this and so does QC.
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:25 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,015,683 times
Reputation: 2662
Fusion, just out of curiosity, would you mind going into further detail as to why you are referencing the Monroe Doctrine and Latin America in your posts? Which Latin American country have you found similarities to that of an Independent Quebec and why do you assume they will parallel each other?

I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts because I am unable to follow the logic.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViveLeQuebecLibre View Post
Fear and more fear from you. You repeat the same message, that QC will face the end of times if we separate. No, QC does not envision an anti-US foreign policy suggest. It is envisioned as with increased economic ties and more military neutrality.In reality, the US would annex Canada in days if they desired so. You do not provide a defense against anglicization because you are the anglicizers yourselves. Americans want markets and peaceful borders not to americanize countries. The American plans for a oui victor in 1995 has been made open to the public. Canadians businesses are sometimes entangled in nationalistic aims. If it is a man from ON or the US running the business does not matter to me. Who provides more opportunities for QC? Most times the case is the Americans, not the Canadians. I have seen this ideology effective in ON. In QC not so much.
Americans want markets and peaceful borders lol.... Yes they do but if you think that the U.S Government or F.P is some benevelant force in the world that doesn't utilize its 'influence' through the world and in particular in its own back yard you must be living somewhere else... Look at what has gone on in Cuba for the last 50 years because they pursued their own F.P.. I'm not trying to create fear but there is a strength Canada has been able to maintain in being united that no single province has had to endure alone... If Ontario or PEI were to go it alone i'd have similar concerns..

Sure the U.S could have invaded us in a day, they as a nation have been much more subtle than that working behind the scenes.. Look up what the C.I.A has done alone in its history in terms of using its 'influence' - the U.S has multiple faces it needs to portray and one of them is this moral, democratic good guy but they have utilized many an assets to influence.. Do you really think the Avro Arrow decision was a Canadian one alone hahahahaha... Do you really think Canada is going to purchase a European aircraft for defense hahahaha nope...

The ultimate decision Quebec needs to make as an entity is will we be better charting our own course as a separate country or in a united Canada.. The decision it has made time and time again is the latter.. As I said to you earlier, if in the unlikely event Quebec does eventually secede - get back to the R.O.C 30 or 40 years later on her views with respect to geopolitics... I think Quebec would have a kindred spirit in Canada in that regard regardless of what Larry Kramer wants to portray... Canada is not a big geopolitical player, the United States is..

Last edited by fusion2; 12-19-2014 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,581 posts, read 11,162,395 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Fusion, just out of curiosity, would you mind going into further detail as to why you are referencing the Monroe Doctrine and Latin America in your posts? Which Latin American country have you found similarities to that of an Independent Quebec and why do you assume they will parallel each other?

I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts because I am unable to follow the logic.
C'mon Edward, you can't tell me that the U.S doesn't use its influence around the world including in its own hemisphere when they did what they did to Cuba alone for 50 years.. Please, please don't tell me people are so naive to think the U.S doesn't utilize geopolitical influence and that some way some how that only extends to the 'bad' guys...

Don't just read a bit of it - read it all...

Monroe Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada has been impacted by American 'influence' for centuries now just as so many Latin American countries... Why the heck would Quebec be any different..? This isn't to say the U.S is a Bad guy... Seldom are there pure bad or good guys but a big and influential guy who uses that influence through many channels... that is for sure...

Would this alone be a reason to stay in a united Canada until the end of time, no but as Bimbam stated in his first post and I agree, there is a certain strength we have garnered and built together.. Did he use that in the context of the U.S - no but there is a strength together.. The question is - is there greater strength for Quebec within or without and this is a matter for Quebecers to decide but all options should be weighed and when someone makes the U.S out to be the moral good guy of the world.. umm Yeah..lol

Read what Chomsky thinks of U.S F.P...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

Last edited by fusion2; 12-19-2014 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Saint-Aimé-des-Lacs, Québec
163 posts, read 154,633 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Americans want markets and peaceful borders lol.... Yes they do but if you think that the U.S Government or F.P is some benevelant force in the world that doesn't utilize its 'influence' through the world and in particular in its own back yard you must be living somewhere else... Look at what has gone on in Cuba for the last 50 years because they pursued their own F.P.. I'm not trying to create fear but there is a strength Canada has been able to maintain in being united that no single province has had to endure alone... If Ontario or PEI were to go it alone i'd have similar concerns..

Sure the U.S could have invaded us in a day, they as a nation have been much more subtle than that working behind the scenes.. Look up what the C.I.A has done alone in its history in terms of using its 'influence' - the U.S has multiple faces it needs to portray and one of them is this moral, democratic good guy but they have utilized many an assets to influence.. Do you really think the Avro Arrow decision was a Canadian one alone hahahahaha... Do you really think Canada is going to purchase a European aircraft for defense hahahaha nope...

The ultimate decision Quebec needs to make as an entity is will we be better charting our own course as a separate country or in a united Canada.. The decision it has made time and time again is the latter..
Good propaganda. I have read all the thread and you have the same theme of instilling fear in independence minded thinkers. This fearful talk about the Americans is your last strategy. That is the strategy of saying the Americans will conquer QC under independence. Lets stay in reality here, QC alone is not alot more vulnerable than Canada. This is the new strategy of saying "QC needs Canada". It is actually a pathetic minded thought process. The big difference between you and the Americans is that they have been very successful and you are the jealous younger sister. The US not more good or evil than Canada. I will also say that you are to have the same power as the Americans I fear the consequences are to be worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
C'mon Edward, you can't tell me that the U.S doesn't use its influence around the world including in its own hemisphere when they did what they did to Cuba alone for 50 years.. Please, please don't tell me people are so naive to think the U.S doesn't utilize geopolitical influence and that some way some how that only extends to the 'bad' guys...

Don't just read a bit of it - read it all...

Monroe Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada has been impacted by American 'influence' for centuries now just as so many Latin American countries... Why the heck would Quebec be any different..? This isn't to say the U.S is a Bad guy... Seldom are there pure bad or good guys but a big and influential guy who uses that influence through many channels... that is for sure...

Would this alone be a reason to stay in a united Canada until the end of time, no but as Bimbam stated in his first post and I agree, there is a certain strength we have garnered and built together..

Read what Chomsky thinks of U.S F.P...

Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What a great joke. The US was the bully on Canada? Have you forgot, that Canada was the British superpower? For most of the history the Americans were the "underdog". Good luck with this strategy on people who do not read books! Of course you are reading better sources then Wikipedia....? I am tired of resting on this obsession with the Americans. Lets talk about QC shall we?
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